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Does class D have the Heft of SS

#41
I gigged for a long time with Amplified Music Products AMP-BH420 SS amp. I'll still put it up against anything out there as far as heft and sound quality.

My class D amps are also not lacking in heft. Go figure.

I guess there's a difference in playing a stereotype vs. a particular amp.
:D

I play in all sorts of mixes.
 
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#42
eyeballkid said:
Guys who play class D will tell you all day that the only heft theirs is missing is the weight you lug to a gig. Couldnt be farther from the truth. Ive yet to play a class d that has anywhere near the authority of my 1200 watt solid state amp in the mix. They sound great in light mixes and in your bedroom, but in a rock mix its like a kazoo.
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Have you tried the Monique with the Hypex module...I haven't, but reviews suggest it has heft.
 
#44
Wasnex said:
Have you tried the Monique with the Hypex module...I haven't, but reviews suggest it has heft.
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In my listening test, the Hypex sounds very good and is a step above the IcePower stuff, in my opinion (and it is only an opinion). The Hypex however does display the same characteristics as the typical class D modules I've heard. The class A/B designs tend to sustain power after the initial burst longer than class D and the class A/B also tends to behave in a non linear fashion as the volume is cranked. In other words, as the volume goes up the behavior of the amp and preamp changes giving what most of us refer to as sag, compression and plushness. The class D modules I've heard do not exhibit this trait, and in my opinion tend to sound "harsher" as the volume gets very loud because of it.
 
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#45
R Baer said:
I don't think you really can't compare these to what's in the typical class D bass amp, as I doubt most of the pro grade touring amps are all using the same $80 off the shelf, OEM modules under their hoods like we are seeing in e bass market. Let's face it, a good percentage of class D bass amps are all using the same modules, so it's not really not correct to have discussions about the heft of "Class D" vs Class A/B topologies when referring to bass amps. Any conversation is greatly biased towards player's experiences with the few class D modules (probably 90% IcePower) on the bass market compared to the tons of class A/B designs players have been using for decades. I think that's an important distinction for people to understand.

IMO, the term "heft" relates to the differences between the OEM class D module's (again, I'm not referring to class D as a topology) ability to sustain the note after the initial burst peak and in the way they are much more linear when compared to a traditional toroid powered amp as the volume increases. There are differences in these two areas that are picked up on by some people and this is what I believe people are talking about when they refer to "heft".
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I was wondering if you'd pop in and comment on this old chestnut ;)


As for the OP:
The amp topology tells you the topology. Can't judge how fast a car will accelerate just by looking at the engine. Gotta make sure the transmission and tires will get the power to the road, and you've gotta have the right fuel in the tank, and make sure the gas pedal is connected. Of course the best components ahead of and following a wimpy engine won't get you anywhere fast, either.
Vague, unanswerable question is vague and unanswerable.
 
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#51
wateroftyne said:
Of course, but I'm referring to my circumstances, where I know the cabs have been capable.
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That's why I asked.
:D

I've had several very capable cab setups and no shortage of heft. I've chosen SS rigs and rack setups with class D amplification over gold standard tube amplification. And I require a pretty physical sound live or I'm not happy. So it leads me to wonder what contributes to the heftless results others seem to get.
 
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#52
Brad Johnson said:
That's why I asked.
:D

I've had several very capable cab setups and no shortage of heft. I've chosen SS rigs and rack setups with class D amplification over gold standard tube amplification. And I require a pretty physical sound live or I'm not happy. So it leads me to wonder what contributes to the heftless results others seem to get.
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Nah.. I've used any number of combinations over the years, and venue supplied rigs. Evertyone's needs vary, obviously.
 
#53
Brad Johnson said:
IME it's both. Otherwise the cab wouldn't matter.
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It IS exactly the cabs that matter as all class D amplifiers have one thing in common: poor damping factor. This makes class D unfit for reproducing low frequencies by design as in this region of the audio spectrum damping factor matters most. The result is whimpy sounding low end.

Not all speakers are as easy to control by an amplifier, especially if that amp has a poor damping factor.

NOT A SINGLE SOLID STATE BASS AMP MANUFACTURER ever mentions the damping factor of their amps but it is very important in bass amplification. Perceived power level will be much higher if the amp is keeping a firm grip on the speakers. Class AB poweramps simply do a better job at this then Class D amps have done so far.

Tube amps handle this differently and tend to sound more powerful in both the low and high end anyway. For a good read on this matter visit This website
 
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#54
DiMarco said:
It IS exactly the cabs that matter as all class D amplifiers have one thing in common: poor damping factor. This makes class D unfit for reproducing low frequencies by design as in this region of the audio spectrum damping factor matters most. The result is whimpy sounding low end.

Not all speakers are as easy to control by an amplifier, especially if that amp has a poor damping factor.

NOT A SINGLE SOLID STATE BASS AMP MANUFACTURER ever mentions the damping factor of their amps but it is very important in bass amplification. Perceived power level will be much higher if the amp is keeping a firm grip on the speakers. Class AB poweramps simply do a better job at this then Class D amps have done so far.

Tube amps handle this differently and tend to sound more powerful in both the low and high end anyway. For a good read on this matter visit This website
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Cool. That doesn't change the results I've gotten with all types of amplification. Even with my unfit amps.
:D

Example: my Aguilar DB750 driving the same cab as my Yamaha PB-1/Crown Drivecore XLS1500 rack. Pretty much a draw fingerstyle, the rack sounded much tighter with aggressive full bodied slap. Of course my preamp weighed more than my amp.
:D

Do you think that your link supports your statements? I checked it out out of curiosity.
 
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#56
SanDiegoHarry said:
As others have said, it is largely to sell their non class D amps. There's also an element of what I call the "cult of the old and crappy" - folks want to cling to anything more than 20 years old as if it's special, no matter how bad it is.
There IS some truth to the notion that some of the first class D amps weren't so great - nor were some of the first solid state amps (or tube amps, for that matter) - but today's Class D amps range from cheap& bad to expensive and *great*. Like everything else, you will get what you pay for.
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I disagree. There are real behavioral differences between the OEM class D modules being put in today's bass amps and what you get from from a typical class A/B design. Whether or not those differences are perceptible to all players, or make one topology better than another is simply a matter of opinion, but they do exist.
 
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#57
To me, the "heft" of an amp is relative to the needs of the venue you're playing.

A Mesa D-800 is plenty for smaller gigs / rehearsal and has plenty of warmth (i.e. low mids) and headroom.

For most gigs being nimble is key, so a Thunderfunk TFB800 is a great amp. And at only 20 lbs. , it has plenty of "heft" for most gigs in major cities everywhere.

When I play through what I want, it's usually the Verellen Meatsmoke - 80 lbs of monster tube tone.......for miles and miles. : )

The nice thing about the new generation class D amps is that you can fit them in your gig bag.

IMHO, it's the amp version of cash vs debit card - convenience is king for most people.
 
#59
I'll bite.

I've tried a number of Switching Power Supply and Class D amps, and have a Tecamp Puma 1000 and GB Shuttle 6.2 on hand. However, I generally prefer the sound of my old Class A/B amps, and "heft" is a good word in describing the difference. "Transparency" is the other word that comes to mind.

My comparison set includes a Thunderfunk 750, upgraded to 800 spec, and and old Eden WT-405; both are all SS. Cabinets have included Audiokinesis TC 112 and 115 (4-ohm), GB Focus 1-15, and a pair of the Shuttle 6.2 1-12 speakers.

Both Class D amps - particularly the Tecamp - can sound "warm" and "fat." But at what I would describe as comparable volume levels, notes from the Class A/B amps seem:

** Better formed on the attack. The attack is crisp and quick, whereas the Class D amps kind of ooze into the note. EDIT - I've thought about this a bit more, and it's not so much that attacks are oozy, but rather that attack - and release - both sound like the edges were cut off, so what you hear is a lovely fat note, but lacking the impact and color of the Class A/B attack/release characteristics.

** Pitch seems better centered from the get-go.

** Each note seems to project into the room with more force and clarity. This is really hard to describe, and perhaps has something to do with phase characteristics, but I sense it quite strongly.

** There just seems to be more character to the tone as it sustains toward release, so the Class D amps somehow sound more even and compressed, which can be good in some ways, not so good in others.

** If I'm playing a lot of notes, the thump factor seems more present for each note on the Class A/B stuff. EDIT: it's like the Class A/B amps exercise a bit more control over the speakers.

** And now, the transparency thing. Notes just seem more lively and dimensional.

Will these be noticeable on on a gig? To me, maybe a bit. To the crowd? Perhaps to some, only in rooms that sound good. But do they make me feel better, and therefore perhaps play better? Perhaps. So in gig situations where I can schlepp the extra weight without too much hassle, the Class A/B units are getting the nod. I'm still working this through, but this is what I'm hearing and feeling, and therefore I share accordingly.

18-MONTH UPDATE - Pretty impressed by the Mesa Subway 800+. It has a great preamp section! And I'm pretty satisfied overall, but still feeling the Class A/B love when not too terribly inconvenient to do so.
 
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