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Does class D have the Heft of SS

Have you tried the Peavey IPR or the similar Crest series? You might be surprised.

I've been using the IPR series now since they first were released. They definitely have never ever been singled out as sounding 'class D' and in fact, in combination with my cabs have often outclassed in tone and volume, the FOH in many rooms. The only thing that caused me to move was the chance of an 'upgrade' to a class D Hypex based power amp which should be a lateral or step up.
 
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If at least one of your amplifiers in question adds an additional HPF to the signal path you'll get a different tonal feel

The Carvin has no HPF.
The PLX1602 can have non or one at either 30Hz or 50Hz. I run it at 50Hz.
The XLS1500 can have non or one at 50Hz.

I can't tell a difference between the Carvin, the PLX1602 with no HPF, the PLX1602 at 30Hz, the PLX1602 at 50Hz, the XLS1500 with no HPF, or the XLS1500 at 50Hz when being fed by my preamp with a 40Hz HPF.

They all sound the same.
 
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I can't tell a difference between the Carvin, the PLX1602 with no HPF, the PLX1602 at 30Hz, the PLX1602 at 50Hz, the XLS1500 with no HPF, or the XLS1500 at 50Hz when being fed by my preamp with a 40Hz HPF.
I believe it's not generally a good practice to "stack" passive filters, like feeding the output of one directly into another. Your preamp may be your savior here. I'm guessing it has an active output (boost) and you are not directly stacking the HPF's. I'm not that great with passive filters, but I think if you stack them without an active component between, you will get unexpected results. I may well be wrong. I often am!
 
I believe it's not generally a good practice to "stack" passive filters, like feeding the output of one directly into another.


Neither the HPF in my preamp, nor the HPF in any of the amplifiers is passive. The HPF in my preamp is an active Linkwitz-Reilly 4th order HP at 40Hz that I designed. The HPF in the PLX1602 is active and appears to also be a LR-4, and the HPF in the XLS1500 is an active LR-4.



Your preamp may be your savior here. I'm guessing it has an active output (boost) and you are not directly stacking the HPF's. I'm not that great with passive filters, but I think if you stack them without an active component between, you will get unexpected results. I may well be wrong. I often am!

Nah - the results even with passive filters are completely predictable.

The problems with stacking passive filters are -

1) Insertion losses may be an issue
2) Idealized filter equations will not be accurate due to assumptions they make about input/output impedance of the filter sections.

The math is a little uglier than simple idealized filters due to real world/finite input/output impedances - but it's still easily predictable (and if you don't like doing the math, easily able to be simulated).
 
Been playing for 20+ years... had more amps than I can recall.

Even at lower volumes the sled was better. Now dont get me wrong, if you play churches or small bars where you use a 1x12 or 2x10 and then DI out... the Aggie was fantastic. But it doesnt even come close to bringing the thunder like a huge SS. I dont even know what to call it... the X factor? the 6th sense? the 4th dimension? the soul? the wrath? Who knows what its called.

Some call it "HEFT"

I call it "GRUNT"
 
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Neither the HPF in my preamp, nor the HPF in any of the amplifiers is passive. The HPF in my preamp is an active Linkwitz-Reilly 4th order HP at 40Hz that I designed. The HPF in the PLX1602 is active and appears to also be a LR-4, and the HPF in the XLS1500 is an active LR-4



Nah - the results even with passive filters are completely predictable.

The problems with stacking passive filters are -

1) Insertion losses may be an issue
2) Idealized filter equations will not be accurate due to assumptions they make about input/output impedance of the filter sections.

The math is a little uglier than simple idealized filters due to real world/finite input/output impedances - but it's still easily predictable (and if you don't like doing the math, easily able to be simulated).
Typically, HPFs for protection purposes are not LR alignment as that's specifically intended for constant power summing, and in audio when used this way are specified as -6dB at the knee rather than at -3dB for other filters.

One big problem with cascading filters is that the resulting knee frequency will change. As add 2 x 40Hz HPFs and the new frequency will be higher.
 
Typically, HPFs for protection purposes are not LR alignment as that's specifically intended for constant power summing, and in audio when used this way are specified as -6dB at the knee rather than at -3dB for other filters.

Yep - basically just a consequence of cascading two 2nd order Butterworth filters you have to take into account.

One big problem with cascading filters is that the resulting knee frequency will change. As add 2 x 40Hz HPFs and the new frequency will be higher.

Absolutely.
 
Class D vs. others

Could you guys touch upon the subject of slew rate and damping factor?
I've read the Wiki version.
Back in the day, big numbers was considered a barometer for quality.

As I understand it, slew rate is not a measured item in class D and, "according to the web", the damping factor is not as good.
I am curious what you amp designers, engineers, and speaker gurus can help others navigate through the confusion.
TIA

Thought I would bump this around again to hopefully learn more about damping factor and how it relates to different amplifier designs for MI applications.
 
Thought I would bump this around again to hopefully learn more about damping factor and how it relates to different amplifier designs for MI applications.

I wish I hadn't give away my full collection of bassplayer magazines

Remember the power amp shootout? They talked about damping and slew rates

I bought my SWR Stereo 800 because of their review .." Now that's what a bass amp should sound like"

and the preamp shootout edition.....That's why i finally have a Demeter VTBP201 and Alembic F1X....and had an F2b
 
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Thought I would bump this around again to hopefully learn more about damping factor and how it relates to different amplifier designs for MI applications.

Ok, here goes some information on damping factor. There are some specific things that I am going to be intentionally general about because it might get in the way of some IP and patents I am working on, but otherwise it should provide the information that you are looking for.

Damping factor is simply the load impedance (of the speaker) divided by the source impedance (of the amp, which is the amp's output impedance). The load impedance of a speaker is taken to be a nominal or weighted average but in actuality it varies quite widely with frequency (for an 8 ohm speaker, it can typically vary from 40 ohms down to 5 ohms). The output impedance of an amplifier (which is measured at the output terminals of the power amp) is typically quite low compared with the load impedance, how low determines how high the damping factor is. The output impedance is not a single number but a set of numbers that varies with frequency due to several aspects of how an amplifier's circuitry typically behaves.

One thing that marketing folks seem to grasp is either a super giant or super small number is better to manipulate a potential customer with, ESPECIALLY in the audiophile world. With distortion, vanishingly small numbers are proudly trotted across the adds and with damping factors the super high numbers are highlighted as though they mean something miraculous is going on. In fact, when you understand how these numbers are achieved it becomes obvious (or should) that in most cases the negative artifacts can be worse than the very numbers might suggest.

For the DF specification, the load is defined as a resistive load (either 2, 4, 8 or 16 ohms) and just the amplifier's output properties are explored. For a numerical example, an output impedance of 0.01 ohms (typical for a solid state amp) would result in a DF of 200 at 2 ohms, 400 at 4 ohms, 800 at 8 ohms and 1600 at 16 ohms. Now, due to a variety of reasons the DF falls with increasing frequency as negative back decreases (critical for stability), as the inductance of any filters (either Zobel or output reconstruction depending on amp class) begins to become significant, with output device gain falloff, dominant pole compensation, Miller compensation, etc. It is typical for the DF at 20kHz to be from 2 to 10x lower due to naturally rising output impedance.

Ok, why do these large DF numbers make no practical sense in the real world? Several reasons, the first being that when you add the source impedance of the connections and connecting wire between the speaker and the amp, in the best of circumstances this might add another .03 ohms so the system DF will end up being (8/.01+.03) = 200 rather than 800. Hmmm, this is an interesting bit of information that the marketing guys kind of omitted. Now, the other much more interesting issue is the real world speaker aspects, the easiest to understand is the amount of voice coil that sits outside of the magnetic gap's primary influence. Take a driver with a .5" gap height and a voice coil with a 1" winding height, this leaves (simplistically) 1/2" of wire outside the gap that does not have anything to do with motor force. If the DCR of the 8 ohm nominal VC is 5 ohms, than there's 2.5 ohms worth of resistive source in series with the part of the voice coil that is actually in then gap. If you were to do the DF calculation with this as part of the source impedance, you now have (8/.01+.03+2.5) = 3.2. (in reality, about 1/2 of that wire outside the gap is still influenced by the magnetic field because it does not stop abruptly) This also explains why efficiency falls with high Xmax drivers, all that wire outside the gap dissipates heat based on its DC resistance.

Another aspect of the DF effect is that when driving a real world speaker system, two factors come into play... first, the speaker system has mechanical damping (based on electro-mechanical filter models that I have discussed before) which combines with electrical damping to create total system damping. The other effect is that you also have large impedance peaks where the LF driver's impedance might reach 40 ohms, so the system DF will vary by a factor of 5 around these impedance peaks. For those of you who might be interested in modeling technology, this is what makes real world loads so hard to model accurately and realistically. There are many things happening all at once, just in the DF aspect. Now add distortion, frequency response, dynamic non-linearities and such and it's a very complicated system. I come from a mostly analog, industrial control system background where all of these things must be considered when developing a working negative feedback control system with servos, actuators and proportional controls, so the basics of this stuff kind of becomes second nature.

In actuality, very high damping factors really are insignificant BUT the circuit attributes used to create these high numbers can easily contribute to large negative artifacts such the the cure is far worse than the presumed disease.

I hope this helps with the understanding of WHY sometimes numbers aren't quite what they seem.
 
Thanks! I see they no longer offer the Black Jac 2000. Oh well... I'm leaning towards the Tech21 DUG 1000.

A friend of mine brought his Black Jag to a get-together at luthier's shop I used to work with. It's a nice amp but he spent quite a while trying to get it to sound as good as my Kustom KXB500 sounded flat. That was an eye-opener for both of us. Maybe good, clean sound wasn't its forte'.
 
> I hope this helps with the understanding of WHY sometimes numbers aren't quite what they seem.
Yep, it reminds me of car manufacturers quoting power at the flywheel...
Thanks for the detailed cues.
Doesn't matter how much flywheel HP you have if you can't transfer it to the pavement.
 

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