I'm not sure what side you're arguing for here, but I'm pretty sure police fatalities are not under reported.
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Don't "clench your buttocks" around cops...
- Thread starter Balog
- Start date
I'm not sure what side you're arguing for here, but I'm pretty sure police fatalities are not under reported.
I think that because it's true. Most people think it is because of tv and movies and the cops PR department.
I was an infantry Marine, and my tour of lovely Iraq took place in the city that every month but one was second in number of attacks only to Baghdad. And we actually had more one month. I fought die-hard Baathists armed with machine guns, RPG's, IED's, and a lot of cross border training from experienced guerilla fighters from around the Islamic world. If I had pulled half the sht on those Iraqis that cops in America routinely do to their fellow citizens I'd be in jail as a war criminal, and rightly so.
And I was referring to that other gentleman who keeps making hyperbolic assertions about the lack of character of anyone who doubts the purity wisdom and love of cops.
I'm not really arguing for either side. I've known both sides of law enforcement.
I was simply pointing out that, like all other crimes, unreported crimes go unsolved. Just as true for offenses committed by the police. If not more true, because they do the record keeping.
Thanks for sharing the info about Iraq, and thank you for your service. Having that background helps me understand your viewpoint better.
I have never had an unpleasant experience with the police or served in the military, so my viewpoint in our discussion is slanted that way. I have an uncle and cousin who are police officers, so I hear stories from them.
-Mike
I have never had an unpleasant experience with the police or served in the military, so my viewpoint in our discussion is slanted that way. I have an uncle and cousin who are police officers, so I hear stories from them.
-Mike
Anyone who's never had a bad experience with the police should consider a vacation in Poway CA. Just go about your business, trouble will find you and you will have all the bad experiences under your belt you'd ever want 
Added an important part that you forgot.
In all seriousness, I'm squarely in the camp that officers or anyone in such a position of authority should be closely scrutinized. There has often been a philosophy that public service is considered one of the most noblest pursuits that a person can do. Unfortunately, that seems to be idealistic. So many people get into public service to boost their own egos or to fill their own coffers. And I'm not anti-cop, BTW. Also, Cheezewhiz is an awesome dude.
Probing in the name of...
They are closely scrutinized as evidenced by the fact the story is being passed on so swiftly. I am not concerned about the level of scrutiny. It seems that there is a judge, doctors, etc. in addition to police who all made this happen. I'm sure locally the story is blowing up. As well it should. But over here, thousands of miles away...I'm not that concerned about a local issue. Sorry to anyone who wants me to be. If I heard the army was out on order from the Feds ransacking and probing a community of people somewhere in the borderlands of Texas, then I'll take heart. George Washington sent the US Army out to force W.PA. American citizens to pay taxes. The first, greatest president (father of the republic, anyone?) did something that would cause mass civil war and chaos in the modern day but was viewed back then as a wise decision. Historical perspective I've attempted to bring to the thread.
Police operate in a certain way often because their unions allow them to do that. That is one reason why I am against public sector unions. I definitely don't argue against a notion of abuses the same as you do.
I refuse to operate idealistically as much as I can because it subsequently distorts reality. In the evaluation of this situation, it creates confirmation bias - people who start with the premise "cops are bad" will find validation. And will continue find it as they trowel the obscurity of the interweb to find more stories. I have friends who do that all day long; sure, the "bad cops" are 100% of 'em when all you do is immerse yourself in the small segment of events which validate that position. If I stand in a dark windowless room I'd think the sun was gone until I stepped outside. The dark still exists, but it's much more confined when the whole picture appears.
Unfortunately, in modern society political ideologues win out because they use methods to convey their radical views which are hard to counter due to narrow thought processes of the ideologues.
One thing I've learned as of late, is that it is the job of us as citizens to familiarize ourselves with the law as far as what our rights are when interacting with police. Also what they can and cannot legally do. That way we can be prepared when confronted with a not-so-honest official who will use our perceived ignorance against us to get his way.
What do they deserve?
My opinion is I highly doubt they were doing it "for fun". Possibly, but highly highly unlikely. They were doing it because they likely live in an area where drugs are prevalent and people use any means necessarily to transport the contraband. They likely got confirmation to do the search because of this; they likely get these orders handed down to be more strict due to the circumstances.
If all the above is true, I don't believe they deserve much compared to what some others want. It depends on their role and who above them dictated their movements.
But, after the initial xray, and the initial enema, they had no evidence of contraband, correct? Yet they persisted to possibly life threatening ends, against the pleas of the suspect, (and the earlier objections of a different Dr.), despite a no-longer valid search warrant? And then (the hospital, also culpable) billed the suspect for his trouble?
I see a forcibly detained person, held without evidence, subjected to humiliating and possibly dangerous procedures, in direct violation of County, State, and Federal law, in direct violation of a Judges' orders, and with apparent disregard to what should be considered correct or decent. Or Legal.
I think they deserve plenty. We'll see what they get.
It's a mistake to assume hostility towards a class of people as a class is hostility or dislike to the individuals in that class. I hate that cops and prosecutors have been put above the law in the manner they have. I hate that rich people can usually buy their way into wrist slaps for crimes that would get regular people thrown in jail. I hate that fraud and corruption (and worse) are ignored or absolved when committed by the political class, and those who own them.
Doesn't mean I hate any individual cop, or rich person, or those who are well connected. Just means I want the group they belong to held accountable before the law in the same way those outside those classes are. And anyone who thinks that is currently the case is fcking delusional.
I've read from at least one news outlet that the plaintiff in this case had previously had a run-in with this same police department where he was found to be "rat holing" something illicit. I don't know if it's in an official police report, but CNN.com did cite an affidavit from a K-9 officer who said that the subject of the search had a history of hiding drugs in his rectum.
Regardless of that one fact, the cops seem to have just taken this incident way too far. I have to applaud the doctors at the first ER who refused to conduct the search on ethical grounds. But the x-ray results should have been enough to end this incident. But when the cops persisted and had the doctors perform more invasive searches? And this is despite the fact that the police had already overstepped the boundaries of their search warrant by leaving a specific jurisdiction? This guy has total grounds to sue the police. Especially since they flagrantly violated his 4th amendment rights.
Regardless of that one fact, the cops seem to have just taken this incident way too far. I have to applaud the doctors at the first ER who refused to conduct the search on ethical grounds. But the x-ray results should have been enough to end this incident. But when the cops persisted and had the doctors perform more invasive searches? And this is despite the fact that the police had already overstepped the boundaries of their search warrant by leaving a specific jurisdiction? This guy has total grounds to sue the police. Especially since they flagrantly violated his 4th amendment rights.
You personally? No.
Society as a whole? Yes.
Exactly the same as you'd treat anyone doing their job - whether the job is farmer, electrician, short order cook, or policeman.
Being a police officer is a job, and should be treated like all other forms of employment.
Save reverence for the police officers (or fireman, or crossing guards, or..) who personally do something deserving reverence.
I haven't looked at the article recently, but were the police officers the ones who did all the examinations? Also, did they issue their own warrant? You state they "violated judges' orders". The judge issued the warrant. If the judged wouldn't have, they wouldn't have done what they did I'm sure.
It was a local issue and still is. A "one-off" that even the attorney of the person (who is filing a lawsuit against the officials) reflected in quotes in some news articles. It does not happen regularly, not even rarely.
Also, what "plenty" do they deserve? You didn't answer my question. Please be specific.
That does not provide a validation but it provides context.
There are always reasons people do things, especially authorities. They seemingly had reason to believe there was a reason to do it, seeing as the outcome would almost surely be either a discovery or this blow-up.
I saw in the comments of that article that people were saying they should spend "20 years in prison" and be registered as "sex offenders". That's just plain ridiculous.
Agreed.
The whole story calls into question the whole notion of the police exercising "reasonable suspicion" (the term that gets used in relation to 'Stop & Frisk') in the course of an arrest. But the way that the police proceeded in this particular investigation seems to have gone wildly beyond any reasonable search, and hopefully this case will serve as a call to re-examine police powers in general.
The job part isn't really a generalization - it's a plain statistical reality.
Power line Electricians have a fatality rate of 19.5/100,000
Police Officers have a fatality rate of 18.6/100,000.
Jobs with ~2x or more the fatality rate of Police Officers (18.6/100K):
Commercial Fishing: 121.2
Logging: 102.4
Miners: 76.5
Pilots: 57.0
Garbagemen: 36.4
Roofers: 34.1
Jobs with similar fatality rate of Police Officers (18.6/100K):
Farmers/Ranchers: 26.1
Grounds Maintenance Workers: 16.9
Construction: 15.7
Structural Iron/Steel: 30.3
Taxi Drivers: 19.7
Cement Manufacture: 28.4
Truck Driver: 25.9
Bartender: 18.0
...and maybe the strangest one to me:
Firefighters have less chance of dying on the job (2.5/100,000) than the national average of all occupations (3.5/100,000)
the usual TB trend of people on the fringes countering points that were never even made. good times. good times.
I show respect to people I interact with. However, people who put their life on the line so I can enjoy mine deserve a little more respect than the person making my pancakes at the diner.
-Mike
