Double Bass double bass mic/pickup in 2021

[jj.833]

Hi,
I'm seeking advice on how to mix mic and pickup in my bass, and what mic to choose.

I'm playing two basses, carved with lifeline and ply with copperhead Realist. I play big band on various stages, and small club bands with drums. Generally I like my sound, but still I'm thinking about how to make it sound more realistic.

I've been thinking I'd try to add a microphone, which i would mix with piezzo sound, say 50/50, or even 90/10 in case of feedback.

What microphone to use? I'm leaning towards Ischell mic (on the gooseneck, not the contact), or some other which would allow to set its position according to my taste. I know Nadine is highly regarded here, but I'm afraid it's too far from the bass, which might be more prone to feedback.

Also, what would you use to mix the piezzo with the mic? I like the idea of a small bass mounted gadget, if it can be had with volume for each channel and a phase switch. This I would send to my Sans amp Paradriver. Or, a two channel stomp box might also work well, in which case i would bypass the Sansamp.

I wonder if someone uses similar method effectively. Thank you very much!

 

[lurk]

Check out the Audiosprockets Tonedexter. There's a thread somewhere here about it. I've messed with a mic, and it's a real PITA generally. I found myself futzing more than music making. I'm sure others will disagree.

 

[juusokasperi]

I've been running Full Circle and the Troll Ribbon into my AcousticImage Clarus SL2 as it has two input channels. The results vary depending on the room I'm in but at best the result has been real nice, natural bass sound and not too boomy. I find the Troll to be quite heavy on the low end and not as clear on the high frequencies so I'm also interested in which mics other people are using. I'm interested in the Schoeps Mk41 with the hypercardioid pattern but it's quite expensive so I'm still not ready to pull the trigger on it.

 

[LaFaro01]

I went (and will go on furthermore) for the Remic. It depends on your personal preferences and needs to choose red or green, but in combination with an Ehrlund I found "my" sound...

 

[LaFaro01]

I've been running Full Circle and the Troll Ribbon into my AcousticImage Clarus SL2 as it has two input channels. The results vary depending on the room I'm in but at best the result has been real nice, natural bass sound and not too boomy. I find the Troll to be quite heavy on the low end and not as clear on the high frequencies so I'm also interested in which mics other people are using. I'm interested in the Schoeps Mk41 with the hypercardioid pattern but it's quite expensive so I'm still not ready to pull the trigger on it.

I was and still am also interested in the Schoeps MK41... but some time ago I came across to very interesting alternative... not even cheaper, but at least as good as the Schoeps..
the Sennheiser MKH 8050
Checking out this microphone I started wondering (and it's still going on), why this microphone is so "unknown"...

 

[Ric Vice]

Microphones are better at reproducing the actual sound of the bass. Unfortunately, they are more prone to feedback.
The DPA 4099 DeVote has really excellent isolation and mounting and removing it is very easy. Personally, I use the Remic 5400LB (Green)
FOH and a Ehrlund EAP to the amp if I’m using an amplifier.

 

[AGCurry]

You are missing something in the sounds you get from your basses with their pickups.

I suspect that a big part of what's missing is the sound of your bass at some distance, so a mic designed to mount on the bass is less likely to provide what's missing.

Ideally, there would be a stand-mounted microphone at least a foot away from your bass, and that mic would connect to a P.A. system. Your pickup, into a small amp, would be your stage monitor. I would use a good dynamic mic like Beyerdynamic M201 or Sennheiser MD421, because a) condensers are more sensitive and therefore more prone to feedback, and b) simplicity. The small improvement in response from a condenser mic is not worth the feedback hassle you may incur, at least in a live situation.

But the Audio Sprockets Tonedexter appears to provide exactly what it is that you want; in essence, it compares the signal from your pickup against the signal provided by the mic of your choice, then processes the former so it resembles the latter.

 

[Don Hergert]

For a mic I've been using a tailpiece-mounted Sennheiser e 604. It's a dynamic mic made for drums and brass, but works nicely on my DB (1930's hot-rodded Alcoa).

The drum mount that the e 604 comes with can be easily removed and the factory-provided thumb-bolt used to go through a standard tailpiece string hole. I've got a goose neck I could use, but the goose neck and its mount together weigh about 50x as much as the mic itself, so it seems to be overkill since the mic's sensitivity and cardioid pattern are pretty generous. With the thumb-bolt, the e 604 can also easily be removed when not being used.

There are some nice things about the e 604: First, it's a dynamic mic so it doesn't require phantom power. Second, it's extremely light (<60g), so mounted on a tailpiece it doesn't add a lot of muting weight. Third, its 40Hz frequency response and cardioid pattern make it easy to target at the bridge feet, where at least on my DB it seems to pickup the best tone. Fourth, it's not very expensive.

Note: The Sennheiser e 604 is a low-impedance (nominal 350 ohm) dynamic mic so if you're plugging directly into an amp you may need an inline impedance transformer plug or equivalent somewhere in your signal chain.

I do not try to mix the e 604 myself with my on-board piezo system -- a Vic's Model C (bridge wing and fingerboard) feeding into an on-board K&K Dual Channel Pro ST pre-amp. Instead I most often use the e 604 as a clear mic feed to FOH (ie: on stage), where I can also send a feed of my piezo system if the sound people want to mix the two inputs themselves. That said, I have mixed the piezo system with the mic, off-board on a dual channel amp and it works well enough. This level of worry is just not my preference...

Since the Sennheiser e 604 doesn't require phantom power, the on-board K&K Dual Channel Pro ST pre-amp that I'm using for my stereo piezo system could be instead used to blend a single bridge wing piezo with the e 604. Overall though, I really prefer the tone of just the mic for volume and tone sensitive situations where I'm less likely to have feedback, and the hotter volume and piercing electric tone of the piezo system for loud situations where feedback can be an issue.

The Sennheiser e 604 has been reviewed here in TB by some really wise tone and spec minded people (within the last 3 or so years), along with a number of very high-end mics. I'd suggest doing a quick search for those threads so you can see what they say. My Alcoa is a fun DB, but being aluminum it doesn't produce the same tone as a nice wooden DB, so seeing their reviews with more standard equipment would be a good idea.

Good luck with all this! It's a jungle out there!

Btw, I use, and highly recommend using, wireless TX/RC units for sending your on-board signals out wherever they are going. Running an amped DB without physical cables is SOOOO NICE!!!

 

[Sean Riddle]

I'd suggest trying the Ischell contact mic or Ehrlund EAP on your carved bass through an amp. If you have a nice sounding bass, either of those will sound amazing and very natural. I recently got a new bass that has a very nice and strong sound and I've been using solely an Ischell into a Clarus SL-2 and Doubleshot. It's the most natural amplified sound I have ever gotten and I've yet to have any feedback issues in high volume situations. I'm also using this new grey putty they have which supposedly is less prone to feedback.

 

[Francois Blais]

The grey putty is supposed to darken the tone if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Wasnex]

In my experience, running a mic through an on-stage amp in a big band is unlikely to provide acceptable results.

Even using a mic for FOH can be challenging. Years ago, one of my peers bought an AMT S25B and planned to mix it with a pickup using a D-Tar Solstice preamp/blender. I don't remember if he still had the original Realists on the bass or had moved on to a K&K.

The sound through the mic when he played solo at low volume was fabulous. However, if he turned up the amp very much, the mic would feedback and drastically degrade the tone. When the drummer started playing, the wash from the cymbals was even louder in the mic signal than the upright bass. Even worse, the cymbals had a nasty phasey quality. I think the rejection off the back of the mic was fine. The cymbals were being reflected off the curved surface of the bass, which I believe is what produced the phasing. Essentially the cymbals were were being reflected into multiple different-length paths to the front of the mic capsule. I considered the mic signal unusable.

He tried rolling off the highs, but IMHO this made the mic sound even worse than a pickup.

My perception is the DPA 4099B and the Xlson Chuck Israels signature mic are even better than the AMT. The Xlson is specifically designed for upright. If I really wanted to try and make a mic work, this is probably where I would start.

I own some ATM 350As. I haven't tried them on upright, but this video suggests they compare favorably to the DPA and are a bit less expensive:


I do think the DPA seems to provide better isolation in the video. Also the DPA comes with a mount that clips to the after length of your strings. This might be more secure than the ATM's clip.

Eventually my friend bought a Ehrlund EAP and IMHO the sound was fantastic on the basses he tried it on. The EAP is sensitive to placement, and he spent a significant amount of time with a stethoscope to find an ideal spot on the bass. Also, my understanding is the Ehrlund is only a good choice for a bass that sounds nice acoustically. If your bass does not sound great, the Ehrlund will faithfully reproduce whatever quality you don't like.

IMHO mics are superior for recording in an isobooth, but I can't imagine using a mic on a live bandstand. YMMV.

If I had a decent sounding bass and wanted the best possible amplified sound, I would try the Ehrlund. I am also definitely curious about the ToneDexter.

 

[Jim Dedrick]

I run a Schoeps CMC1 MK4 and have a Realist Life Line. I used to blend the Lifeline with an ATM mic. It was like 50/50. Now that I have the Schoeps I have yet to need piezo. That is playing mostly in piano bass drum trios. Frequently with a heavy handed drummer. I have a really old(1850) carved bass into an AI Clarus and either an MAS 28 or a Genzler 123SLT cab. Other bass players have told me that my tone was so natural they thought I had no amp and were wondering how I kept up with drums. The Schoeps is a little pricey and after you own it your search for “that sound” will be over. No feedback, no issue with bleed, and stupid simple to dial in your sound. Really good investment.

 

[Fat bob]

I recently picked up a grace Felix for the ability to use a mic. This preamp is awesome, I’ve been using it with the Dpa and lifeline. I have had success with blending on stage, but have only done it a few times. I think most of the cats just send mic to foh (or a blended signal) and pickup to amp; which is how I’ve mostly been doing it. Honestly, it’s nice to have the ability to use a mic and blend, but for most gigs Ive been leaving the Dpa at home and still bring the Felix for the HPF, better sounding di than my amp, great eq to find any trouble frequencies, and the mute switch. For doubling the Felix has been awesome, but doesn’t really have to do with the mic in short, the mic is cool but I’ll probably end up bringing it out for 10% of my gigs or less

 

[LaFaro01]

I recently picked up a grace Felix for the ability to use a mic. This preamp is awesome, I’ve been using it with the Dpa and lifeline. I have had success with blending on stage, but have only done it a few times. I think most of the cats just send mic to foh (or a blended signal) and pickup to amp; which is how I’ve mostly been doing it. Honestly, it’s nice to have the ability to use a mic and blend, but for most gigs Ive been leaving the Dpa at home and still bring the Felix for the HPF, better sounding di than my amp, great eq to find any trouble frequencies, and the mute switch. For doubling the Felix has been awesome, but doesn’t really have to do with the mic in short, the mic is cool but I’ll probably end up bringing it out for 10% of my gigs or less

 

[jj.833]

Thanks everybody! I learned a lot here. I think I'll oder the Ehrlund but I'll just let it all sing through my head yet for a while. While I was researching, I found this perfect comaprison video:

 

[Ric Vice]

[QUOTE="jj.833, post: 25691202, member: 81179"I think I'll oder the Ehrlund but I'll just let it all sing through my head yet for a while. While I was researching, I found this perfect comaprison video: [/QUOTE]

Just to let you know, the installation of the Ehrlund on that bass is completely wrong.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

A lot of installation in this video is wrong. I cannot recommend it.

A good alternative to the Ehrlund and Ischell is the AKG C411L together with its battery adapter and preamp B29L.

You might have a look at them too.

Personally I like the AKG better on my bass than the Ehrlund, but that might be the bass, my playing or my taste.

 

[jj.833]

A lot of installation in this video is wrong. I cannot recommend it.

Well, I like the Ehrlund sound in this video anyway. I can compare only to my Lifeline, which sounds generally the same as in the video straight to the amp; with my Sansamp preamp I am able to make the sound nice and natural. I only miss the 'finger details', those little relics, placed mostly in the higher frequencies. The Ehrlund in the video has plenty of them, though seems to be lacking the 'body'. I believe I can find the body by careful placement of the pickup; I was already trying to find the sweet spot by ear, and feel there are many possibilities... but thanks for the tips anyway! There's not very much info on Ehrlund I am able to find.

 

[Ric Vice]

Well, I like the Ehrlund sound in this video anyway. I can compare only to my Lifeline, which sounds generally the same as in the video straight to the amp; with my Sansamp preamp I am able to make the sound nice and natural. I only miss the 'finger details', those little relics, placed mostly in the higher frequencies. The Ehrlund in the video has plenty of them, though seems to be lacking the 'body'. I believe I can find the body by careful placement of the pickup; I was already trying to find the sweet spot by ear, and feel there are many possibilities... but thanks for the tips anyway! There's not very much info on Ehrlund I am able to find.

The Ehrlund is made in Sweden for Goran Ehrlund who is a microphone designer and engineer. He designs and builds large diaphragm condenser microphones for recording studios. The EAP is a pickup that was designed on similar principles

that he has used for his microphones. Ultimately, you'll have to get one and try it on your bass, to find out if it works well for you. On my 5/8's Mirecourt bass with the proper mounting technique (tiny dots of putty on the underside of the EAP) I get

a authentic reproduction of sound of my bass. Goran is a amazing engineer.

 

[Earl]

A lot of installation in this video is wrong. I cannot recommend it.

A good alternative to the Ehrlund and Ischell is the AKG C411L together with its battery adapter and preamp B29L.

You might have a look at them too.

Personally I like the AKG better on my bass than the Ehrlund, but that might be the bass, my playing or my taste.

Slightly off topic but could the AKG C411l be used with this to power it?
Prodipe BP21 Phantom Power Supply | Ferre Musique | Reverb