Double Bass double bass tuned in fifths

[eerbrev]

Hey, if you can do it, do it. More power to ya. Your argument seems rather silly though. Violins, violas, and cellos, as far as I'm aware, have significantly shorter string lengths than double basses. I may be wrong, but my impression is that since the notes are closer together, then you need to shift much less than with the bass, and the distances of shifts are also much smaller. In fact, I'm pretty sure that this is why fourths tuning was adopted in the first place.

You're right, that is one of the reasons why 4ths tuning was adapted in the 1st place, other reasons being the ability to make low E strings and not low C strings and the influence of Italy on england and germany, and thus the continent, making their tuning more prevalent.

The discussion regarding the number of shifts is an interesting one. the biggest thing i've noticed is that if you exclude pivots (as someone further up the thread is doing), it's less of a question of whether or not there are more shifts, but rather when you shift. for example, in mm. 37-40 of the 4th mvt of the trout, there is a progression of a G arpeggio to a D arpeggio which can be played in one position, moving to an A arpeggio which requires a one tone shift up and back to reach C sharp and then an 3 moving octave D's which can be played in the position you just left off in. In 4ths the shifts are about the same amount. G is accomplished without shift, D has one shift, then a shift back to the E on the A arpeggio, then a shift up the octave D in the last bar.

i admit freely that there are some keys which really suck, and thirds are a bitch, just like some keys suck in 4ths and some intervals like minor 6ths . What I'm trying to point out here is that it's all shades of grey.

Also, in regards to the the 5ths tuning thread where you suggested that someone learn the last movement of K35 and post it, I never posted anything because I felt things best left lie, but I ended up learning it. Put my money where my mouth was, so to speak. I say this without any predjudice, but that whole movement is so much easier in 5ths that it's comical. I tried it in 4ths and realised why you had asked us to play it!

eerbrev

 

[Chris Symer]

Hey eerbrev, those of us that have years of experience in both of the tunings know that what you say about the shifts is true, in that over all they don't so much happen more often as they just happen at different times. I also wholeheartedly agree that the transition from fourths to fifths is not nearly as big of a deal as many people make it out to be. There are also people who aren't going to believe what any of us have to say about playing in fifths because their minds are already made up. Yea, I checked out the Mozart also and was ready to go with posting fingerings on the other thread......
I do however think that there is much to be gained by studying and playing in fourths, especially if there isn't a qualified teacher in your area who knows about playing in fifths. Learning about the bass in fourths from a good teacher and then later making the transition on his own would be my recomendation for the op. It's how I did it, it sounds like it's the way you're doing it. It's the way Red did it. And I'm pretty darn sure Joel Q went that route also.

 

[mcnaire2004]

Not that I completely know what I am talking about. But, 5ths sounds better, period. The only real shifting problem (with my limited experience) is if you have your hand in a block and think that if you move it down a inch and keep the same shape, certain notes will be accurately under your fingers. The hand is a stretchy and flexible thing that wasn’t meant for prolonged periods of a fixed shape (in fact, there isn’t a part of the body that does well when put into a held, fixed position for too long). I think that if this is realized (and I am realizing it more every day) then you see little flicks that require less energy than a shift or hand shape can reach great distances with ease.

Yea harmonics and open strings are different. You have to not depend on some things, and you develop a dependency on other things.

I should imagine any tuning is acceptable even in exams as long as you play well. The bass is tuned in 4ths for a reason. You will also find a lot of solo repertoire off limits with 5th tuning (Bottesini etc.).
FC

And I don’t know if you have heard, but a pretty amazing bass player in 5ths has a couple CDs playing something like Bottesini

 

[fergus currie]

You guys go on philosophizing, I'm gonna practice.

The best thing anyone has said for a long time here!

 

[fergus currie]

And I don’t know if you have heard, but a pretty amazing bass player in 5ths has a couple CDs playing something like Bottesini

I guess you mean JQ. Well the CDs with Barashko are cool but I suspect these are done with 4th tuning, listen carefully to the harmonics and explain how he plays Melodie in 5ths tuning....
JQ has used 5th tuning for classical period works like Dittersdorf etc. I'll ask him.
FC

 

[tradernick]

Your argument seems rather silly though.

You sure can tell the classical pedants from the rest in this thread. Reminds me of what I heard and saw across the hall when I was doing my music degree (from the Jazz side).

The bottom line is that if you want to tune in 5ths, you should go for it. It will soon become apparent to you what the benefits and the drawbacks are. The quality of your work will be more closely related to a bunch of other factors than it will to your choice of tuning. Chief among them are natural talent and work ethic. If you're really serious about the instrument (and it sounds like you are) you will treat the alternate tunings as a road down which you take excursions, to see where it takes you. It doesn't mean you can't come back to what is now your home base (get it?? Home Base?? ) and do work there as well. It just means you have to find more time to play than your colleagues.

 

[Deleted member 90176]

we play with 2 different bows. why can't we have 2 tuning systems? this is the glory of bass, is that we choose not to abide to tradition as the other string instruments have chosen. we put end pins in different places, use 5 string basses, cut fingerboards differently. rethinking the tuning of the instrument was inevitable.

 

[eerbrev]

I guess you mean JQ. Well the CDs with Barashko are cool but I suspect these are done with 4th tuning, listen carefully to the harmonics and explain how he plays Melodie in 5ths tuning....
JQ has used 5th tuning for classical period works like Dittersdorf etc. I'll ask him.
FC

So far as I know, from talking with his students, Mr. Quarrington hasn't performed in 4ths in over a decade, if not two. As for the harmonics... magic? ninjas? Joel Quarrington needs none of thee things. he is simply a jedi.

 

[fergus currie]

Here's the Deal from JQ.

Hi Fergus, Both those Bottesini CDs on NAXOS were done in fifths. The company approached me about recording everything by Bottesini, a project that didn't really interest me but at least it was some recording. I knew I couldn't play everything in fifths (eg.Grand Duo), but I knew I could play a lot of it and I wanted to show players that fifths and some Bottesini could co-exist. NAXOS got tired of waiting for me to finish and I guess Tom Martin offered his catalog to them.
All the best,
Joel

 

[Chris Symer]

So how DOES he play Melodie in fifths?

 

[fergus currie]

Yes but he takes the nasty harmonic bits down an octave. It's a bit of a moot point if this is real Bottesini since the Maleric, Yorke and Ricordi editions differ so much on this very point. Octave transposition in Botts is open game a lot of the time.

 

[paulunger]

I've been asked to weigh in on the defense of fifths tuning, so against my better judgment, here goes...

For me the only thing that matters is the music. How can I play more in tune? How can I play with a better vibrato? How can I more adequately convey what the composers like Brahms and Beethoven intended? How can I blend with the other strings better? How can I make the bass sound as big and sonorous as possible? How can I play more legato?

Between 4ths and 5ths tuning, the answer to every one of these questions is 5ths tuning.

Surprisingly, 5ths tuning is not more difficult to play than 4ths tuning. But to do it well you have to abandon the rigid left hand position of Simandl technique. For me, abandoning Simandl has been a godsend. My intonation and vibrato have never been better.

For every other string instrument, the pedagogy advances to rise to the level of the instruments greatest players. The pedagogy isn’t written to make it as easy as possible to play the instrument. It is written to develop a player to be able to rise to same height as the greatest players. The pedagogy of the Double Bass should be no different. Indeed, our pedagogy has been doing that and 5ths-tuning is the next logical step.

The reluctance to acknowledge 5ths-tuning reminds of the "Rabbath" craze that began when I was in college. Many people ridiculed it. "You can't use pivot technique on the bass" or "use your third finger in the lower positions". Today, however students use this technique without any questions or reluctance.

The level of expected Double Bass playing has been rising dramatically over the last 50 years. I remember hearing stories of students getting scholarships merely for being able to play a major scale. Then along came Gary Karr and people saw that the bass could be a solo instrument - and they expected students to be able to solo. Amazing players like Petracchi, Ellison, Turetsky and Streicher furthered the expectations and possibilities of the bass. Bass students played recitals and where expected to perform Concertos to graduate. Things progressed even further with players like Ed Barker and Edgar Meyer. Today high school students play the Bottesini Concerto, they use pivot techniques and all 4 fingers. The level of playing and pedagogy has risen to meet what the greatest players have shown is possible.

But there is more to life than Koussevitsky and Bottesini. We want to play Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms. We want play this stuff in the most musical way possible. Soon the pedagogy and students will rise to match what guys like Joel Quarrington have shown is possible.

 

[Stick_Player]

Idunno,

it often feels like so many of the people who give a damn are the people who are bass players who never tried it. every violinist, violist, and cellist i've ever spoken with thinks it makes a huge amount of sense.

And they have demonstrated this fifths-bit by playing on a bass?

13" violin string length v. 42" bass string length?

I doubt it.

 

[Chris Symer]

And they have demonstrated this fifths-bit by playing on a bass?

13" violin string length v. 42" bass string length?

I doubt it.

Well lets see, I make a living playing in fifths on a bass with a 43-1/2" string length. So I have to say 42" would be just fine too, thank you very much.

edit; by the way, nice post from Paul.

 

[eerbrev]

Well lets see, I make a living playing in fifths on a bass with a 43-1/2" string length. So I have to say 42" would be just fine too, thank you very much.

edit; by the way, nice post from Paul.

I concur on both counts. I recently upgraded to a new bass with a 42" length, which is a 1/2 inch longer than my previous scale length. No problems on the bass playing the Elegy in 5ths, though there was one note I decided to finger on my new solo fingerboard instead of a harmonic because it made my fingering less awkward. But if you can finger it, then why use the harmonics? that's like painting with one colour, and not necessarily one that always fits in your "painting (to lamely continue the analogy)".

assuming a violinist would be able to play something on the bass just because it's tuned the same way is like assuming that Peter Yarrow (from Peter Paul and Mary) can play Peter Seeger tunes because they have the same name. On the other hand, my cellist friend who is somewhere close to 5 feet even with small hands can play my bass tuned in 5ths without a problem (though her fingerings looks a bit goofy )

I mentioned the other string players in my first post partially as an addendum to the point that most people who aren't bass players don't really care how we tune as long as we play the notes, and also as reference to people who have not only education, but lots of musical experience (most of them start playing WAY earlier than bassists do). forgive me if I take what they think regarding musicality, phrasing, fingerings et cetera pretty seriously. Discounting their opinion just because they're "not a bass player" is, to quote someone here, "pretty silly". I purposely take lessons with people who aren't bass players because they have so much more to say about the music i'm playing, and don't make excuses for a long scale length, thick strings and short bow.

" you should phrase that like this" *plays*
" I don't know if I can do that... i mean-"
" well, that's what it should be. figure it out, man."

eerbrev

 

[transition]

On the other hand, my cellist friend who is somewhere close to 5 feet even with small hands can play my bass tuned in 5ths without a problem (though her fingerings looks a bit goofy )

If I may ask a really stupid question: how does the interval between the strings make it easier for someone with small hands to play the big low-position intervals on a single string?

I think I'm missing something here.

 

[eerbrev]

If I may ask a really stupid question: how does the interval between the strings make it easier for someone with small hands to play the big low-position intervals on a single string?

I think I'm missing something here.

If you've got small hands, you're going to be shifting a lot anyways. I just mentioned my friend's stature as a reference to say that she's not some giant who will be able to adjust to the bass from cello easily. My friend sometimes has problems with extensions on cello because her hands are so small.

It muddles the conversation, so perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it, but it does have some bearing on the conversation in relation to the flippant remark regarding talking to other string players about tuning.

We're getting OT here. Anyone read the OP's post lately? I'm trying not to step on my soapbox here but these discussions get heated.

eerbrev

 

[mcnaire2004]

Small hands? No problem! Can you reach a minor third with a mild stretch or pivot like motion? I bet. That is about as far as anyone really needs to reach in the low register anyway....

Enter the thumb: Why not use it in the low register? In 5ths you can finger octaves (Correct) with the thumb.

 

[fergus currie]

OK I'm going to give this a try for a bit.... I'll need a solo A string an orchestral D and a solo F# tuned a semitone up to G.. Right?
I think I'll need only 3 strings to cover Bottesini who never went below an A.
Hope my free time allows for this experiment....
See you all in a bit for the results.
FC

 

[eerbrev]

Have fun, fergus. if you don't want to shell out the cash for an f# string (assuming you don't have one, which you might) a detuned orchestral A works just fine for an experiment.

eerbrev