Doubling: how much back and forth?

[TwentyHz]

Howdy Doublers -

I'm going to start doubling. As the (mostly original) music evolves, we've decided I should play BG on some tunes. I'd like to hear your wisdom re: how many switches in a 1-hour set, pitfalls, soundcheck etc.

Thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

Howdy Doublers -

I'm going to start doubling. As the (mostly original) music evolves, we've decided I should play BG on some tunes. I'd like to hear your wisdom re: how many switches in a 1-hour set, pitfalls, soundcheck etc.

Thanks!

The music and set list determine when you switch. Sometimes you need to negotiate a change to facilitate switching instruments, or compromise and play a tune on the wrong instrument if it is essential to play the songs in a certain order without a long enough break to switch. For awhile I was switching between 3 instruments in a big band that played a wide style repertoire. I used a traditional string bass for standards, Yamaha TRB6P for funky jazz, and NS Design US Series 6-String electric upright for modern jazz and some vocals.

An Ashley MX508 was the heart of my bass rig. I used Shure A95U line matching transformers so I could plug into the mic inputs. When I switched instruments, I engaged the mic/line switch on the mixer as a channel mute.

 

[TwentyHz]

The music and set list determine when you switch. Sometimes you need to negotiate a change to facilitate switching instruments, or compromise and play a tune on the wrong instrument if it is essential to play the songs in a certain order without a long enough break to switch For awhile I was switching between 3 instruments in a big band that played a wide style repertoire. I used a traditional string bass for standards, Yamaha TRB6P for funky jazz, and NS Design US Series 6-String electric upright for modern jazz and some vocals.

An Ashley MX508 was the heart of my bass rig. I used Shure A95U line matching transformers so I could plug into the mic inputs. When I switched instruments, I engaged the mic/line switch on the mixer as a channel mute.

Thanks.
Gear wise, I'll use the footswitchable 2 channels on my Warwick LWA 1000. I also have a Sansamp Bass driver deluxe if I'd need it.

For flow, I'd --- prefer --- not to tweak the setlist because we've got tunes happening in the best order we've had yet. And it already considers Guitar and Drummer needs.

I think I have some flexibility, because for me, some tunes are clearly better on DB or BG, and some are more flexible. My 1st draft results look like the list below. But I haven't tried it yet (will do at practice this weekend.) I'm worried about 3 instrument changes. Next gig isn't until 10/26. [#] means that for that tune I have a stronger preference for the listed instrument.


Instrument: Tune #s
note

DB: [1,2,3]
3.5 is BL talks to audience, we tune, tweak gear

BG: 4,[5],6,7
6 is me and drummer for Verse 1(&2) while guitarist switches guitars

DB:[8, 9], 10, [11]

BG: 12, [13, 14, 15], 16
14.5 is "Thanks, Band Intros, Tease Next Band"

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks.
Gear wise, I'll use the footswitchable 2 channels on my Warwick LWA 1000. I also have a Sansamp Bass driver deluxe if I'd need it.

For flow, I'd --- prefer --- not to tweak the setlist because we've got tunes happening in the best order we've had yet. And it already considers Guitar and Drummer needs. I think I have some flexibility, because for me, some tunes are clearly better on DB or BG, and some are more flexible. My 1st draft results look like the list below. But I haven't tried it yet (will do at practice this weekend. next gig isn't until 10/26. [#] means that for that tune I have a stronger preference for the listed instrument.


Tune #s Instrument

[1,2,3] DB 3.5 is BL talks to audience, we tune, tweak gear

4,[5],6,7 BG 6 is me and drummer for Verse 1(&2) while guitarist switches guitars

[8, 9], 10, [11] DB

12, [13, 14, 15], 16 BG 14.5 is "Thanks, Band Intros, Tease Next Band"

It's never my call to modify a set list. I usually determine which instrument to play, and if the flow of the set list doesn't allow me to make desired switches I bring my concern to the music director. They may modify the set list, add a short talkover or vamp, or determine which songs are played on the wrong instrument. Typically they don't care or want to be bothered, and just tell me to handle it as best as I can.

It only takes a matter of seconds for me to switch instruments, so the only time it's usually a factor is when we play straight from one tune into another.

I sounds like you have it figured out pretty well .

 

[mrcbass]

I have a gig where I use two BGs one with flats and one with rounds. I have the songs blocked in the set lists - similar to the way you demonstrated - to minimize interruption to set flow.

 

[StyleOverShow]

It's tough at times to make switches and even harder toting more gear into a venue. Messes up my one load in/out goal but worthwhile for the quality of sound attained. Usually the switch occurs with a ballad or jazz tune and there is a pause as the front person talks to the audience introducing the tune or explaining the meaning of life as demonstrated in the upcoming lyrics and I put one down, pick another up, check tuning and nod my I'm ready.

I use an Aguilar Tone Hammer preamp to manage my second signal, usually a standup bass or fretless with piezo pup. I use a HPF on them and its inline with the quarter inch patch cord. I EQ their signal on the pedal.

It's not easy but it works. I probably play 1 out of 5 gigs with a second instrument (not that often).

 

[Groove Doctor]

That set list looks very well thought out. Don't change it if you don't have to.

Side-bumpers on the DB where it rests on the ground is a must to prevent damage & speed up change over. A soft matt or towel on the floor is good too.

 

[TwentyHz]

Any advice about working with the FOH sound engineer?

I mean, good communication, self-monitoring,a little extra effort at soundcheck can help ... and I intend to have a setlist roadmap for instrument changes available. And I'll be prepared to surrender and play on instrument A if B is crud (fully aware that BG is probably always gonna be the safe one).

 

[Wasnex]

Any advice about working with the FOH sound engineer?

I mean, good communication, self-monitoring,a little extra effort at soundcheck can help ... and I intend to have a setlist roadmap for instrument changes available. And I'll be prepared to surrender and play on instrument A if B is crud (fully aware that BG is probably always gonna be the safe one).

Ideally a separate DI send for both instruments would be my choice for best audio. As I am sure you know, the EQ tends to be very different for each, and the DB specifically needs to be tuned for feedback resistance if high volume is required.

When I ran the Ashley rack mixer, my audio tech just took one of the line outs from my board. He was a great tech and I trusted him totally. I think he wanted to use the line out so he didn't have to worry about me switching instruments. Basically it's a trade off (separate EQ/gain) versus (need to deal with channel switching). He was running a digital board, so if any major EQ issues popped up between the instruments he could easily manage the problem by saving/loading EQ from his board's library.

A caveat of this approach is you have to use post DI settings. Make sure you understand the signal flow of your amp, so you know how changes made during the gig impact the signal you send to FOH. Any changes to the DI signal will be reflected in all mixes. The audio tech can compensate for the mains fairly easily, but its not always so easy to deal with the monitors. With my setup, I typically sent R to FOH and used L for my speaker, so I could adjust my master volume without impacting anyone else's mix.

If you get an inexperienced tech who is not equipped to deal with DB, all I can say is try to remain calm and teach them if you can. The use of HPF and notch filters is probably the most important thing to cover and also some basics about tone...play some music on a Ipod so the tech at least gets a chance to understand how a string bass should sound and sit in the mix. It probably won't help, but you gotta try.

 

[TwentyHz]

Ideally a separate DI send for both instruments would be my choice for best audio. As I am sure you know, the EQ tends to be very different for each, and the DB specifically needs to be tuned for feedback resistance if high volume is required.

When I ran the Ashley rack mixer, my audio tech just took one of the line outs from my board. He was a great tech and I trusted him totally. I think he wanted to use the line out so he didn't have to worry about me switching instruments. Basically it's a trade off (separate EQ/gain) versus (need to deal with channel switching). He was running a digital board, so if any major EQ issues popped up between the instruments he could easily manage the problem by saving/loading EQ from his board's library.

A caveat of this approach is you have to use post DI settings. Make sure you understand the signal flow of your amp, so you know how changes made during the gig impact the signal you send to FOH. Any changes to the DI signal will be reflected in all mixes. The audio tech can compensate for the mains fairly easily, but its not always so easy to deal with the monitors. With my setup, I typically sent R to FOH and used L for my speaker, so I could adjust my master volume without impacting anyone else's mix.

If you get an inexperienced tech who is not equipped to deal with DB, all I can say is try to remain calm and teach them if you can. The use of HPF and notch filters is probably the most important thing to cover and also some basics about tone...play some music on a Ipod so the tech at least gets a chance to understand how a string bass should sound and sit in the mix. It probably won't help, but you gotta try.

Thanks! Great info - especialy 2 DIs. I was thinking about that today but didn't (duh) realize that I can do that easily by letting him have the Amp DI for the DB and I can run my BG thru my Sansamp Deluxe and give him that DI. That way it's just like another band member to him. We sound check each; he tweaks each throughout show, and all his cumulative EQing and other freq filters stay in place. (I do have an hpf I use when needed).

Thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks! Great info - especialy 2 DIs. I was thinking about that today but didn't (duh) realize that I can do that easily by letting him have the Amp DI for the DB and I can run my BG thru my Sansamp Deluxe and give him that DI. That way it's just like another band member to him. We sound check each; he tweaks each throughout show, and all his cumulative EQing and other freq filters stay in place. (I do have an hpf I use when needed).

Thanks!

Always best if you can handle muting on your end. I have seen a couple of shows where a doublers unplayed instrument channel was left open to ring and the audio tech did not pick up on the problem. Sounds like you have a workable solution .

 

[TwentyHz]

Thanks for the help. Practice went well once I got both preamps' volumes to same level. Next week I'll do some recording to get a sense of how the 2 DI signals compare.

 

[TwentyHz]

Well, the gig was cancelled due to other circumstances, and we are now entering are naturally occurring winter hiatus. We're using it to do some much-needed recording, and pay more attention to the change in our musical style. I'm using it to create new muscle memory for new lines I'm playing on BG, and we're all adjusting to the new possibilities for the BG tunes.

The technical stuff is fine; two DIs is a great strategy (and I had forgotten how much I love the tube-like warmth of of Sansamp for BG!). And jumping back and forth every few tunes is fine, I guess - I can do it without compromising my level of proficiency.

Or maybe I can't. Or maybe I don't wanna. Just when I start to hit that flow state and get all gooey and free it's time to switch up. It's like some kind of 'jammus interuptus'.

Anybody go through this? Maybe it's my own limitations - maybe some folks can let go and fall in immediately. But it's compromising my enjoyment.... my chance to reach the little cathartic special moments that I love the most. That's the stuff that keeps me coming back and muscling through the rest.

 

[Wasnex]

Well, the gig was cancelled due to other circumstances, and we are now entering are naturally occurring winter hiatus. We're using it to do some much-needed recording, and pay more attention to the change in our musical style. I'm using it to create new muscle memory for new lines I'm playing on BG, and we're all adjusting to the new possibilities for the BG tunes.

The technical stuff is fine; two DIs is a great strategy (and I had forgotten how much I love the tube-like warmth of of Sansamp for BG!). And jumping back and forth every few tunes is fine, I guess - I can do it without compromising my level of proficiency.

Or maybe I can't. Or maybe I don't wanna. Just when I start to hit that flow state and get all gooey and free it's time to switch up. It's like some kind of 'jammus interuptus'.

Anybody go through this? Maybe it's my own limitations - maybe some folks can let go and fall in immediately. But it's compromising my enjoyment.... my chance to reach the little cathartic special moments that I love the most. That's the stuff that keeps me coming back and muscling through the rest.

Funny...I am the exact opposite, I went through the trouble of practicing, playing, transporting, setting up, maintaining, etc, three unique instruments because I felt it would be a compromise to play only one. Each instrument had a very unique voice, so I chose the voice that I felt was best suited to the composition and style of performance.

I remember when I was younger that I didn't like to switch between instruments...or switch between throwing a softball and baseball for that matter, because I thought dealing with the different mechanics would throw off my "game" so to speak. After switching on instruments for years it becomes much easier, and actually develops you in unique ways that are, IMHO, not possible without the doubling experience. In the long run, I think doubling expands your musicianship rather than constraining it.

The one aspect I found challenging though is intonation when I was playing in a context where I could not hear the instrument clearly. For example, playing a string bass acoustically requires one to rely almost exclusively on muscle memory. I was not able to switch between EUB and acoustic string bass when I could not hear the string bass clearly, but I could easily do it in a big band setting where both instruments were amplified and relatively hot in the mix. When I was gearing up for a tour that required accurate, but essentially none-aural intonation on string bass, the EUB went into the case as soon as possible during prep.