Double Bass DPA 4099 vs AMT SP25B

[Ric Vice]

I was just re-reading your post again Ric, and if what you just said is true, that is totally amazing!! If it really is as you say I will definately get a 4099. I've been looking at the Ehrlund Acoustic Pickup too as they sound a bit like a mic but supposedly have excellent feedback resistance.

Well Rick, I hate to generalize about such things since I don't have any experience with the Ehrlund. What I do know is that the DPA 4099 has really good rejection all around the sides of the mic. That said, it will feed back, but I'm having good luck with it for the most part. If you only send it FOH it's got great of axis rejection and sounds every bit like my bass, with plenty of gain before feedback.

Will I really be able to get enough level off the 4099 through backline to compete with a drummer?
If I'll need to blend some Realist... how much 50/50?

That's a tricky question. The DPA cancels a great deal of the sounds that you would normally have to deal with from the instruments adjacent to you so that's a real plus. However, there's the whole issue of the drums actually triggering ( for lack of a better word) the bass to vibrate and thus causing feedback. I'm not sure that any mic can compensate for this.
Currently, for most gigs I have the DPA volume at set around 6 or 7 through the Headway EDB-1 into a Walter Woods MI-400-8 as the power amp using either a EA VL 108 or EA VL 208. Meanwhile, the Realist volume is running at 4. All the pre amp settings are either flat or in the case of low midrange and bass rolled back.

With my Realist what tends to happen with feedback is that the body of the instrument amplifies the sound from my backline speaker, which in turn gets picked up and reamplified... you know how it is! It is often the open D string that is the culprit, although I have noticed problems with 'fretted' B on the A string in some rooms.

Boy do I, that's why I'm looking at the APT Flex pickup which is similar to the Realist but apparently voiced with less bass response.

Is this what happens with the 4099 in your experience then, or is the feedback you get more of the traditional 'squeal' as you mentioned before??

If the DPA feeds back it tends to be either at frequencies below 60 hertz or right around 200 hertz

I'm still waiting for my EA stuff ... Apparently it was shipped by US parcel mail or something and the UK retailer reckons they are normally about as speedy as our Royal Mail Parcelforce (parcelfarce!).

Well, that amp is worth the wait and there cabinets are truly amazing for DB.

On a happier note I have adjusted by soundpost (it was leaning at a peculiar angle) and done some work on my bridge (also leaning at a wierd angle) and I just can't stop playing my bass now, it sounds and feels so good.

Do not, I repeat to move it again as you have probably found the sweet spot and IMHO just breathing on it can change the sound. I remember watching a violinist in a local repair shop when the luthier got the post just right and the instrument just opened up. Unfortunately, she had him move it again and, at least to my ears it never sounded as good as it had sounded just two seconds before.

Rick

(PS - check my thread about my bendy bridge and see what
you think it will do... I might take time lapse photos for fun!)[/QUOTE]

 

[bolo]

Will I really be able to get enough level off the 4099 through backline to compete with a drummer?

Rick, just my two cents, but IMO that depends a great deal on how much sound you can get out of your bass (acoustically). And the drummer.

Past a certain volume, the 4099 will feedback thru your amp. Both the low end rumble (esp. as you point the head of the mic in the direction of the f-hole), and the high pitched mic squeal. Regarding the latter, it is probably the most volume before feedback though that I've ever been able to attain out of the few mics I've tried. I think this due to the miniature shotgun design.

Where you stand relative to your speaker is key. Don't let the speakers "see" the mic. Just keeping the back of the bass between the mic and the speakers makes a huge difference. I typically stand in front of my cab about 2-3 feet, but about 45 degrees or more off axis. I keep the mic facing forward and away from the speaker.

How much if any pickup will you have to blend to be heard? It's relative. Goes back to what I wrote in paragraph #1. Get as big a sound as you can out of the bass.

Footnote - DPA 4099s everywhere when I saw Star Wars - In Concert with my two boys Sunday, ages 10 and 12. On all the trumpets, trombones, violas. Did not get a good closeup shot of the bass section.

 

[Basschair]

Hello folks,

A few months ago I was able to pick up an AI Coda R, the latest before the docking system, for a great price and have since been saving for the 4099 with the DAD 6001 BC flat freq adapter. I'm happy to say that I now have the cash and will be ordering in the next day or so.

Here's my confession: I'm also something of an acoustic guitarist and would love to be able to use this mic on my Taylor instead of the onboard electronics (or in addition to). I thought that I'd read earlier in this thread that someone had bought the 4099g with the guitar mount and had no problems using it on the DB.

Looking at the DPA website, it appears that the only difference between the two packages is the mount: the guitar one has a longer "backbone" to accommodate the guitar's rib depth when compared to, say, the violin mount which seems a relatively popular alternative choice amongst many of you.

Can anyone see a good reason not to get the guitar version of the mount (same mic, same flat freq. adapter for bass)?

Thanks for your time!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Will I really be able to get enough level off the 4099 through backline to compete with a drummer?

In my experience, I was not able to do this with the 4099, nor have I been able to do so with any mic alone. It's a great sounding mic, but it's still a mic. See below for more.

If I'll need to blend some Realist... how much 50/50?

(In my experience,) the best plan is to set the mic to get the best sound before feedback, then use as much pickup as the situation requires and don't worry about the ratio between the two. Having a predetermined notion about what will work usually leads to an interesting learning opportunity at the school of hard knocks for me.

With my Realist what tends to happen with feedback is that the body of the instrument amplifies the sound from my backline speaker, which in turn gets picked up and reamplified... you know how it is! It is often the open D string that is the culprit, although I have noticed problems with 'fretted' B on the A string in some rooms.

One thing that you can do that I did for years before recently going pickup only is to put your speaker up above the body of the bass on a pole, roughly at ear level. This helps you get maximum gain before feedback out of both mic and pickup. Larry Grenadier is doing this with a PA speaker these days, I hear. It was a pain on the load in/out, but always sounded good.

 

[Ric Vice]

Hello folks,
A few months ago I was able to pick up an AI Coda R, the latest before the docking system, for a great price and have since been saving for the 4099 with the DAD 6001 BC flat freq adapter. I'm happy to say that I now have the cash and will be ordering in the next day or so.

It's a very nice mic, with good rejection of sound from the sides.

Here's my confession: I'm also something of an acoustic guitarist and would love to be able to use this mic on my Taylor instead of the onboard electronics (or in addition to). I thought that I'd read earlier in this thread that someone had bought the 4099g with the guitar mount and had no problems using it on the DB.

What I do know is that the Violin Mount wouldn't work on my bass regrdless of all the workarounds that TB players came up, and these guys are very creative and ingenious. I would have never thought that there would be so many ways to use that mount. Unfortunately, on my bass with a Pecanic Tailpiece the bass mount worked the best. You can buy the different mounts from DPA and they are very easy to change out because of the way they designed it. Each one of them costs $70.00 retail.

Looking at the DPA website, it appears that the only difference between the two packages is the mount: the guitar one has a longer "backbone" to accommodate the guitar's rib depth when compared to, say, the violin mount which seems a relatively popular alternative choice amongst many of you.

True, I wouldn't have gone with the violin mount if I'd known what I know now. There is one other thing though ,you have to specify that you want the DAD 6001 BC or I think you'll end up with the other one that rolls off the low frequency to high, at least for my tastes. Ultimately, It's probably better to order it directly from DPA, so you know what you are getting. They are great to deal with.

Can anyone see a good reason not to get the guitar version of the mount (same mic, same flat freq. adapter for bass)?

Well, It's pretty hard to tell wheather it will or not. Personally, I'd get the bass version and have them send you a guitar mount with it. It's gonna cost more , but it will work on both instruments that way. Alternatively, you could buy the guitar version and order the bass mount if it didn't work. One other thing is that the Bass Mount mic case must have a different foam insert, because it dosen't fit in my guitar mount box.

Thanks for your time!

 

[Rick Middleton]

Thanks for all the thoughts on the 4099, Ric and Steve, I was so close to ordering one yesterday - I found a supplier that would ship it to me for only £366 - but I managed to restrain myself, I'd really better wait till my 5 string Warwick and my Markbass combo are sold.

I think it will be a great microphone, but as regards it competing against drums through backine, I think these are wise words...

In my experience, I was not able to do this with the 4099, nor have I been able to do so with any mic alone. It's a great sounding mic, but it's still a mic.

You say you'e gone back to just pickup now Chris - (a Full Circle with a Phil Jones amp these days??) Have you stopped using the 4099 because it is too much hassle, or because it didn't make that much of a difference in your backline sound?

If it's the later of the two, then maybe the Ehrlund would be a better backline 'pickup blending' solution as it seems to have a mic like sound but is supposed to be very feedback resistant (heard the crazy swedish metal with cello and double bass?)

I wish I could get to try these products out for myself....
(at least the 4099 supplier offered a 30 day money back!)

Rick

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

You say you'e gone back to just pickup now Chris - (a Full Circle with a Phil Jones amp these days??) Have you stopped using the 4099 because it is too much hassle, or because it didn't make that much of a difference in your backline sound?

Both, in a way. *If* I was still willing to carry a pole mountable speaker, a speaker pole, and a two channel amp and/or blending device (to be used with a powered speaker), I think the DPA might well work with very little pickup blended in. With regular "on the stage" backline, I found that the gain before feedback (or "mic-tubbiness") was not that much greater than with several other mics I've used. For a mic that's meant to go FOH, I think it's pure genius, and easily the best choice I've seen. For backline, it still has all the drawbacks of a regular mic, and for most of the gigs I play, I find all of the fussing with gear can distract from the focus on simply playing music... and that's where (and why) I got off the train.

I wish I could get to try these products out for myself....
(at least the 4099 supplier offered a 30 day money back!)

Don't feel too bad. I was getting one to review for a magazine article (not published yet) and still had to give my credit card # to get it sent. I had no problem with this as the folks at DPA were extremely helpful, knowledgeable, and nice. At the end of the trial period, I decided to send it back and go pickup only for a while. If I were doing more gigs with FOH support these days, I likely would have bought it, but since I'm not, pickup only allows me to focus more on the music from the downbeat to the end of the set. The PJB and the Headway make this a lot easier to do now than before I had them.

 

[anonymous02282011]

^^^ I felt the same way.

Sold mine off.

Plus, I like the Beyer M88 a bit better soundwise.

The Full Circle --> Doubler --> VL208 sounds really, really good.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I've kept my AMT but only use it for FOH or recording (which I do both very rarely)

Also using Planet Wing - Doubler - VL208

No gas, no hassles.

 

[bolo]

I hear what the pickup only guys are saying. But the mic adds so much that's pleasing to me, whether it's the Beyer or the DPA, not having it causes a distraction and a degree of dissatisfaction. So in my case not using the mic for the sake of convenience or whatever ends up detracting from just making music.

I don't consider any of it a hassle. To me it is how I "plug and play." I consider it my set up and my sound.

Hey, it's okay. Whatever you do, and however you do it, make a good sound.

 

[Ric Vice]

I hear what the pickup only guys are saying. But the mic adds so much that's pleasing to me, whether it's the Beyer or the DPA, not having it causes a distraction and a degree of dissatisfaction. So in my case not using the mic for the sake of convenience or whatever ends up detracting from just making music.

I don't consider any of it a hassle. To me it is how I "plug and play." I consider it my set up and my sound.

Hey, it's okay. Whatever you do, and however you do it, make a good sound.

I just like the sound of the mic blended into the pickup.
If I had my way they would design a mic so feedback resistant that we would never have to use a pickup again. Since that's not likely just yet, although were getting pretty close with the DPA I'll continue to use a pickup in combination with the mic for those times that the mic just won't work, which is actually pretty rare these days.

Ric

 

[bolo]

We've gone through this before.

I hope those that have tried the DPA or are thinking about trying it will keep posting. Thanks to Ric for starting the thread. And larry and Vunz and jrlynch and Barcza and all the others who have contributed.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

All the crap I've been thru about gear and it comes down to fingers. i love the sound of a mic but what a hassle and in the end its 98% unnoticeable to anyone out there.

Well said. If you listen to the sound you're getting, you can do a lot just with your hands and the difference in sound to anyone else is negligible.

The Headway is the single piece of gear that makes the most difference in taking the quack out and then well i'll bet those upward facing drivers on the PJB make a big diff for hearing yourself...im looking forward to trying that sometime...

Agreed about the Headway. I don't like it for blending so much any more, but it does a really nice job with the FC through the FX return. And those upward firing drivers are a godsend.

 

[jrlynch]

Strikes me that this thread has gotten pretty much off track. Fact is there is no pickup on the planet (including the planet) that sounds as good as a microphone, and there are few microphones as good as the dpa. if you don't want to deal with the fuss of a mic, so be it, but as far as accurately translating the sound of the instrument, not much sounds better than the dpa at the moment.

jeff.

 

[Ric Vice]

Contrabbasso,
J.R. is correct this thread has gotten massively large. When the 18 volt issue came up early on on the I think that issue was never clearly resolved. We got a couple of posts from Headway and Nova Strings indicating that the compromise in voltage was an issue, but that the mic would work very well at 18 volts and according to John Liter and Gordon, DPA was actually recommending the EDB-1 for the DPA 4099 and other condenser microphones they manufacture. That said, I don't recall that any actual DPA representative came into this thread to confirm or deny this, so their you have it.


If your ears tell you that the EDB-1 isn't what you're looking for, the sound is lacking, and you have a better solution that sounds better, than that's great. My experience is some what different. I get so much signal out of the EDB-1 that I couldn't possibly turn the mic past 7 without getting serious feedback in the bass and midrange and all the tone controls are set at to flat with the exception of the bass control that's backed off, and the lower midrange that's set very low .

My system after the EDB-1 is very different than yours however. I'm running the EDB-1 through either a Walter Woods MI-400-8 or a Walter Woods Ultra (usually directly into the power amp and from there into either a Euphonic Audio VL 108 or VL 208. The tone is great and I don't have to actually blend a great deal of the Realist pickup.
Just my experience though. My only complaint about the Headway is the lack of an additional set of tone controls, that would be very nice indeed.

Ric

 

[peterpalmieri]

Strikes me that this thread has gotten pretty much off track. Fact is there is no pickup on the planet (including the planet) that sounds as good as a microphone, and there are few microphones as good as the dpa. if you don't want to deal with the fuss of a mic, so be it, but as far as accurately translating the sound of the instrument, not much sounds better than the dpa at the moment.

jeff.

I don't understand where we got off topic exactly. I think from the beginning of this thread many have stated, suggested or mentioned others who use a mic for FOH or recording and a pickup as part of their "bass rig". Others of course use a mic straight into their amp or blended with a pickup. It's all good and all up for discussion.

The real FACT is that if you cannot coax a great tone from a mic at a usable volume for gigging through your amp without feedback it really doesn't matter how much better it sounds then a pickup. Some have better luck then others.

 

[Uncletoad]

The real FACT is that if you cannot coax a great tone from a mic at a usable volume for gigging through your amp without feedback it really doesn't matter how much better it sounds then a pickup. Some have better luck then others.

This is true. I notice in my case that the acoustic volume of my bass is so loud that the mic/amp combo can't get as loud in the room before it feeds back as the bass can by itself with no amp at all. The pickup's job is to make the thing louder when the acoustic volume can't keep up. That is why I've discovered a mic is useless for me unless I can use it through a FOH PA.

YMMV.

 

[jrlynch]

which is the core appeal of the dpa: send a quality mic signal to the house, send just a pickup or a mic/pickup mix to your rig. the audience gets the most honest representation of your acoustic sound, while you survive the gig.

the beauty of the dpa is that it can live on the instrument, so you can use the right tool for the job.

jeff.

This is true. I notice in my case that the acoustic volume of my bass is so loud that the mic/amp combo can't get as loud in the room before it feeds back as the bass can by itself with no amp at all. The pickup's job is to make the thing louder when the acoustic volume can't keep up. That is why I've discovered a mic is useless for me unless I can use it through a FOH PA.

YMMV.

 

[Ric Vice]

which is the core appeal of the dpa: send a quality mic signal to the house, send just a pickup or a mic/pickup mix to your rig. the audience gets the most honest representation of your acoustic sound, while you survive the gig.

the beauty of the dpa is that it can live on the instrument, so you can use the right tool for the job.

jeff.

Jeff,
After I got the Bass Mount that's certainly where mine resides. I haven't solved the mount for the mic jack quite yet though. Right now I just push the DPA adaptor underneath the strings at the bridge and try to get the loop at the end over a string. I'm going back through the thread to try and locate your mounting system in those early posts.

Ric

 

[Roger Davis]

which is the core appeal of the dpa: send a quality mic signal to the house, send just a pickup or a mic/pickup mix to your rig. the audience gets the most honest representation of your acoustic sound, while you survive the gig.
jeff.

And that's it in a nutshell. DPA to FOH and PU to backline. Trouble is you'll never hear the beautiful sound of your bass coming out front. I used that setup last week and some of my friends told me what a great sound the bass was making. Well, that's OK; I had rather got used to the Underwood/Headway/Clarus/Wizzy sound coming from behind.

Incidentally, not really to do with this thread, I've just got a Super Flightcase for backline only gigs. Used it last week on an iffy stage. Initially disappointed with the on-stage sound but cheered up when I had a lot of complimentary comments from members of the audience. I think the trick is to be a minimum of three feet in front of the cab.