Well, since then we decided he'll do the drum roll and it hasn't been and issue since.
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Drummers who blame everyone else for tempo.
- Thread starter 3tsb
- Start date
Well, since then we decided he'll do the drum roll and it hasn't been and issue since.
I used to play with a drummer (my brother in law), who kept excellent time, that I could lead or pull back slightly if I wanted, I could pretty well read his upcoming fills too, great fun.
I've tried with others and it doesn't work. At all.
The biggest problem I find with a drummer forgetting or modifying cues, is the rhythm guitar player doesn't know where we will be going so I try to anticipate his moves and it usually sounds bad.
With just one guitar we can usually make it sound almost as if we planned it, but the extra guy throws a wrench into our collective intuition for some reason.
Then everyone gets to use the "What happened?" look.
I've tried with others and it doesn't work. At all.
The biggest problem I find with a drummer forgetting or modifying cues, is the rhythm guitar player doesn't know where we will be going so I try to anticipate his moves and it usually sounds bad.
With just one guitar we can usually make it sound almost as if we planned it, but the extra guy throws a wrench into our collective intuition for some reason.
Then everyone gets to use the "What happened?" look.
Our drummer is aware he can't keep tempo, so he plays with a metronome in earphones. Always.
Like playing with a loud .midi drummer.
Like playing with a loud .midi drummer.
The fact that the guitar solo was ending didn't clue you in?
Well, I really didn't want to have to pay that much attention to the solo when I thought I could rely on the 2 measure roll. We try our best to entertain the crowd while we're playing.
Hey. My drummer told us "I think its 24 bars, just count it."
I smell it a BLAME SHIFT.
Look, YOU and the keyboard player missed your parts because you were trying to work the crowd...so blame it on the drummer?
Dude, you screwed up (no biggy, we all do it)...and when he asked, you turned it back on him. So he got defensive and basically told you to pay attention to your part. Sounds like the drummer's not the only one who pulls the "not my fault" card sometimes. Chances are he's NOT going to do something different everytime but he doesn't want to feel like he's the only one who always messes stuff up. So he gave you a lame warning to put you on your toes. You jacked it up, blamed him, so he said "stay awake at the wheel".
It probably would have went over better if just you said, "Yeah, sorry about that. I was working the crowd and I missed my cue." I mean, so what...you're a human. What's he going to do? Take away your birthday? So you missed ONE cue. He probably asked because you missing your part threw him off and caused him to miss HIS part. You know how it is. When you're on stage, it's hard to communicate sometimes so it's hard to tell if the other guy screwed up or just made a change. I mean, dude, BOTH you and the keyboard player missed the part! You can see how he might have thought it was a CHANGE. I mean, what are the chances that you BOTH miss the SAME part at the SAME time?
You thew him off and that in turn threw you off. Don't be too pissed at him. It was just an accident all around, man.
I mean, no offense but if the drum roll is the ONLY way that you know that your part is changing--well, that just sounds lazy to me. You should know ALL of the song of ALL the songs. You're the BASS PLAYER. Contrary to what the common folk think, YOU'RE the musical leader of the band. You are the one who lays the foundation and guides the chord changes. Maybe another mental exercise you could work on is the ability to pay attention to the music and PRETEND to pay attention to the crowd. You don't have to really be THINKING about the crowd, just give good face and some eye contact...but keep your head in the music. You're the bassist--it's YOUR job to make sure the thing stays glued together, man. I'm not trying to talk down to you; just trying to help with some ideas. Sometimes the written word comes across wrong and it might look like I'm talking down to you. I don't mean to sound like that.
They're drums... you're supposed to hit them. With sticks even.
+1 on everybody having to remember their part. you can't always rely on the drums to give you cues.
And here's a tempo tip FWIW -- As a drummer, I used to have trouble with tempo until a veteran bass player gave me a tip that revolutionized my pocket:
He told me to pay attention to the vocalist.
Of course there are exceptions to this with vocalists who have bad rhythm, but for the most part, if they're decent, they'll naturally try to settle where the pocket needs to be.
Once I started doing that, all my tempo problems vanished.
Some folks need to separate "tempo" from "groove". They are 2 different things.
In my opinion tempo is *NOT* a committee thing - it's set and maintained by the Drummer (at least, in every pro-level band I've played with). That tempo creates the zone within which the band as a whole can push/pull to create the groove.
In my opinion tempo is *NOT* a committee thing - it's set and maintained by the Drummer (at least, in every pro-level band I've played with). That tempo creates the zone within which the band as a whole can push/pull to create the groove.
Tempo is set by the drummer... Groove is set by THE WHOLE RHYTHM SECTION!
I'm hesitant to comment on this.
My view is tempo is set by whoever starts playing in time first. If there is a lengthly open solo to start, then starts in time and then the band comes in, well then the soloist has just set the tempo, to which the whole band is agreeing on. I'd be pissed if I did a lengthly bass intro, then the whole band came in faster then i was just playing.
But as for the original issue, i'm 100% of the opinion that everyone should be aware of the song form. You should be able to hold that form down, without even playing a single note. Specially if you are playing as recorded. We all have little things we rely upon to cue us when we drift, but that should be the minority.
At the same time tho, in jazz at least, there should be some flexibility. Just cause the tune says one bar of the ii chord then one of the V7, doesn''t mean you can play three beats of each and resolve early. Bill evans did that all the time.
My view is tempo is set by whoever starts playing in time first. If there is a lengthly open solo to start, then starts in time and then the band comes in, well then the soloist has just set the tempo, to which the whole band is agreeing on. I'd be pissed if I did a lengthly bass intro, then the whole band came in faster then i was just playing.
But as for the original issue, i'm 100% of the opinion that everyone should be aware of the song form. You should be able to hold that form down, without even playing a single note. Specially if you are playing as recorded. We all have little things we rely upon to cue us when we drift, but that should be the minority.
At the same time tho, in jazz at least, there should be some flexibility. Just cause the tune says one bar of the ii chord then one of the V7, doesn''t mean you can play three beats of each and resolve early. Bill evans did that all the time.
I smell it a BLAME SHIFT.
Look, YOU and the keyboard player missed your parts because you were trying to work the crowd...so blame it on the drummer?
Dude, you screwed up (no biggy, we all do it)...and when he asked, you turned it back on him. So he got defensive and basically told you to pay attention to your part. Sounds like the drummer's not the only one who pulls the "not my fault" card sometimes. Chances are he's NOT going to do something different everytime but he doesn't want to feel like he's the only one who always messes stuff up. So he gave you a lame warning to put you on your toes. You jacked it up, blamed him, so he said "stay awake at the wheel".
It probably would have went over better if just you said, "Yeah, sorry about that. I was working the crowd and I missed my cue." I mean, so what...you're a human. What's he going to do? Take away your birthday? So you missed ONE cue. He probably asked because you missing your part threw him off and caused him to miss HIS part. You know how it is. When you're on stage, it's hard to communicate sometimes so it's hard to tell if the other guy screwed up or just made a change. I mean, dude, BOTH you and the keyboard player missed the part! You can see how he might have thought it was a CHANGE. I mean, what are the chances that you BOTH miss the SAME part at the SAME time?
You thew him off and that in turn threw you off. Don't be too pissed at him. It was just an accident all around, man.
I mean, no offense but if the drum roll is the ONLY way that you know that your part is changing--well, that just sounds lazy to me. You should know ALL of the song of ALL the songs. You're the BASS PLAYER. Contrary to what the common folk think, YOU'RE the musical leader of the band. You are the one who lays the foundation and guides the chord changes. Maybe another mental exercise you could work on is the ability to pay attention to the music and PRETEND to pay attention to the crowd. You don't have to really be THINKING about the crowd, just give good face and some eye contact...but keep your head in the music. You're the bassist--it's YOUR job to make sure the thing stays glued together, man. I'm not trying to talk down to you; just trying to help with some ideas. Sometimes the written word comes across wrong and it might look like I'm talking down to you. I don't mean to sound like that.
HUGE +1!!
You said it all man...
To the OP: The drummer is no more or less responsible for consistent tempo than anyone else is, it is everyone's responsibility. YOU are solely responsible for your part, your drummer is not responsible for you missing your parts.
IME, guitar players do tend to rush things when they get excited, and drummers sometimes listen to the guitar player more than the bass player (hard to imagine, but I have met many drummers like this).
Think about how the mind and body work together when you're having great sex or are totally lost in the music and the moment on a dance floor: The drummer's job is to provide the skeleton of the song, the bass is the MUSCLE (and organs lol) and everything else (guitar, vocals, keys, etc.) is skin, hair, clothing, etc. - superficial stuff, no less important, but stuff on the surface. However, it is the muscle that moves things in the body, just like in the band, and just like on the dance floor, just like everywhere else. Your job is *very* important, and you can't allow yourself to be distracted by the chicks on the dance floor. Watch them, smile at them, but keep your focus on your job. Going back to the "the performance=the body" analogy, having a bass player who gets distracted from his job is like having a problem with premature ejaculation because your mind-body connection is too focused on your brain and your eyes instead of your other body parts. Everyone in the band needs to be in tune with that mind-body connection, where you all become one through your performance, that's when great stuff happens, and your audience will feel it and become a part of it. This comes with experience, *listening*, acceptance of your own faults and limitations, those of others, and a willingness to just let go and have some fun.
Don't worry so much about accidents happening - some great things can come out of accidents and musical train wrecks if everyone keeps their cool, keeps listening, and doesn't stop playing just because someone made a boo boo. If you wouldn't let it happen in the bedroom, don't let it happen on stage.
Above all else, keep your ears open and your mind on the job.
It's a gorilla with sticks. 
I subscribe to the tempo being the drummer's deal, and the groove coming from the whole rhythm section. There are occasions where the bassist must set the tempo, like when a bass lick/riff starts a tune. I tend to have to check myself and pace it while slapping the intro to "Play That Funky Music," since I have to set the tempo of the song in doing so, but my right hand wants to "go Flea" if I don't watch it.
While a drummer can really control dynamics more obviously, it helps to have bassist subscription, and vice-versa, to really make 'em work effectively. Dialogue with your rhythm section fellow(s) on such things helps out a lot. I play within a pool of musicians as the 1st-call bassist for cover band gigs, and we rarely rehearse at all (there will be a marathon one coming as prep for the NYE show, because we will be a 5-piece, instead of the usual trio; singing drummer will front alone, so we'll have a sub dummer and 2nd guitar). We are still able to communicate effectively, and have effectively encouraged the 4 guitarrists in our pool to learn from each other and offer more possibilities down the road. We have a rather good business model and organization, and the recovery could mean splintering the band into 2 performing units when things get busy.
While a drummer can really control dynamics more obviously, it helps to have bassist subscription, and vice-versa, to really make 'em work effectively. Dialogue with your rhythm section fellow(s) on such things helps out a lot. I play within a pool of musicians as the 1st-call bassist for cover band gigs, and we rarely rehearse at all (there will be a marathon one coming as prep for the NYE show, because we will be a 5-piece, instead of the usual trio; singing drummer will front alone, so we'll have a sub dummer and 2nd guitar). We are still able to communicate effectively, and have effectively encouraged the 4 guitarrists in our pool to learn from each other and offer more possibilities down the road. We have a rather good business model and organization, and the recovery could mean splintering the band into 2 performing units when things get busy.
Sometimes a simple, direct conversation can go a long way.
It sounds like your approach to the song was to play it verbatim, and his approach was to take some liberties and mix it up some. They're both perfectly legitimate approaches to a song, but you have to discuss it as a band to decide which way you want to go.
My band does "All Right Now." I never wait for a cue from anyone. I count measures. I hit "The Big E" at the right spot every time. Fortunately, my guitar player plays the solo pretty much like the original, and the drummer does hit a big kick/crash combo at the right time too. I guess we're all counting measures and feeling the song. I suggest any bass player learn the pattern of all songs and count measures rather than depend on too many cues from your band mates.
FWIW, I fall in that category of musicians who puts the lion's share of maintaining the tempo on the drummer's shoulders. Notice I did not say "establishing" the tempo. That is completely different and may or may not be the drummer's responsibility. But once the acceptable tempo is established, it is the drummer's job to maintain it. Other musicians can try to accelerate or decelerate the tempo, but they will eventually have to demure to the drummer's clock-like unwavering tempo if they want to lock in with the band.
Consider rehearsing or learning a song to the original studio recording. Does the drummer on the CD accelerate? Can you influence his tempo? No, because he is locked in permanently to a pre-determined tempo, and it is your duty to lock in with him. Your live drummer should have the same ability and remain just as un-influenced.
Now, as for establishing tempo, a functional band has to have a good, honest, open discussion about that. Sometimes drummers can do it, sometimes it's someone else in the band who "gets" the tempo a little better and should be the one who counts in the song, or maybe you want your drummer to do a quick tempo check with a metronome. Whatever strategy or combination of those you want to use, it should be thoroughly discussed and understood how the tempo of songs will be established.
Song tempo is one of the facets that can make or break a band, and communication and understanding are imperative. It can be a frustrating ride for all concerned if you don't work it out. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
Consider rehearsing or learning a song to the original studio recording. Does the drummer on the CD accelerate? Can you influence his tempo? No, because he is locked in permanently to a pre-determined tempo, and it is your duty to lock in with him. Your live drummer should have the same ability and remain just as un-influenced.
Now, as for establishing tempo, a functional band has to have a good, honest, open discussion about that. Sometimes drummers can do it, sometimes it's someone else in the band who "gets" the tempo a little better and should be the one who counts in the song, or maybe you want your drummer to do a quick tempo check with a metronome. Whatever strategy or combination of those you want to use, it should be thoroughly discussed and understood how the tempo of songs will be established.
Song tempo is one of the facets that can make or break a band, and communication and understanding are imperative. It can be a frustrating ride for all concerned if you don't work it out. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
Team work. Everyone needs to work to stay on the same tempo. The drummer is merely offering a suggestion for the tempo. It does a fat lot of good if the bass, vocals, guitars, keyboards, etc don't pay attention.
At least, if the whole band speeds up and slows down AS ONE, then you are still good.
Don't blame the drummer. Everyone shares the blame when it comes to tempo.
