Dumbing down: a slight rant

[DrMole]

Unless the text in question is by Ayn Rand. Seven hundred pages of The Fountainhead in high school junior year is a violation of the eighth amendment.

I would allow my kids to consider Cliff's Notes and internet research for that one.
Gimme the themes and good examples within the text and we are good

 

[Wisebass]

Hi dougjwray

Have you run into situations where your bandmates asked to dumb down a song?

Yes! But that's a long time ago!

Beginners do that. (and that's okay for me!)


That's all I have without getting into a rant about lazy people.



greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[RocknRay]

I wonder. But the band will never have to play it. Not our niche.

As a study piece for “5”.

 

[El Thumpo]

But my personal rule is always defer to the person singing lead. The last thing you want to do is give a singer too much to think about. They might brainfart and go back to playing it their way anyway.

You know, that's extremely good advice. In fact, you've helped me adjust my attitude towards something that has been an occasional source of frustration.

In my experience, when the lead singer is solely a vocalist (not playing an instrument at the same time) they've tended to be the least experienced musician in the band. I've played with singers who had amazing voices but no real grasp of the concept of "key" or "pickup intro" or "modulation", et cetera. It can feel a bit off to defer to their choices since they're not grounded in a solid understanding of music theory, but your point is well taken: precisely because they're fuzzy on the building blocks of music, they don't necessarily have the tools to process what you're suggesting.

We should probably start another thread on "How to Educate Your Lead Singer," since I'm sure a lot of TBers have tips and pointers on that. But yeah, if that process isn't in place go with the flow.

 

[swink]

Classical musicians call it a "coupure". (we had to leave the piece out to keep it interesting for the audience).
Jazz musicians call it an interpretation. (we caught the spirit of the song.)
Rock musicians call it dumbing down. (half of our group is too stupid to keep the rhythm.)

Who is the smartest ?

FWIW: Keep playing music, play the songs you like, the way you like... How many songs are forgotten because people didn't want to play them exactly as they where recorded by the original performer.

Traditionals and evergreens are created by people that play them wrong

 

[delta7fred]

Oh, man. When I first decided to get back to playing my bass for reals, I briefly joined this little "jam band" that was run by this woman who was a few cards short of a full deck. I was just getting my chops back and thought that little band would be a perfect venue for it (which it was, for a few months). They did that song and I launched into the correct, harmonizing bass line and she went nuts. "No! Don't play it like that." "But that's how it is on the recording!" "I don't care! It will confuse the other players if you play that!"

Uh, no. No it won't. I lasted with that for a short time, while I got back into shape, but she proved far more impossible than that little excerpt would even indicate so I moved on quickly, and that's when I went out and found the main band I am still in today. But I never did dumb down "Satisfaction" for her.

There's a couple more songs that spring to mind where the harmonising bass part is often ignored.

Under My Thumb - Stones
Play That Funky Music - Wild Cherry.

In 2003 I joined a band that played Under My Thumb. After the first run through the singer/guitarist commented that it felt so much better than with their old bassist. I suggested that he was probably doubling what the guitar was playing, the guitarist confirmed that he was.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Locally there are a few bands that are popular i.e. local following. I've noticed one main difference between casual musicians and pro/former pro players, myself in the second camp. What's missing nowadays in songs is what I call 'nuances.' We toured from the beginning of the 80's through the end. We lived in hotels most of the time and usually had access to the bar which was normally closed in the morning.

We would get up early and go down to practice. We always tried to capture those "pushes" and "accents" that great recording bands throw into their pretty straightforward songs. I think it's all these small 'brushstrokes' are missing nowadays and especially with up and coming contemporary bands I hardly hear these kinds of embellishments anymore. It makes me think that playing during the 80's was one of the golden decades for live performance.

 

[dkelley]

Worst problem I've had is when the others think they're right, but they're wrong, or when it's 4/4, the pickup is on the and of 3, like 3 eighth notes (for a silly example).... played by the whole band at once... and the guy thinks that lifting his guitar, giving a look, and then suddenly moving it down means we all play same tempo, start at same time, and understand things.

ARGH

 

[Medicine Man]

Hmm, if the band has failed to hit the bridge, intro, time signature change or whatever 50 times, it's time to dumb it down or toss the song. My vote is almost always to toss it. Plenty more songs out there. What surprises me more than people struggling on a complicated part is them having learned the song not even realizing that three bar phrase or time signature change is there on the recording.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Hmm, if the band has failed to hit the bridge, intro, time signature change or whatever 50 times, it's time to dumb it down or toss the song. My vote is almost always to toss it. Plenty more songs out there. What surprises me more than people struggling on a complicated part is them having learned the song not even realizing that three bar phrase or time signature change is there on the recording.

Toss the song or the band!

 

[MegaSwing]

As a study piece for “5”.

I know he knows the song. How could he not? He knew the Chicago song too.

 

[Michedelic]

So Anyway, I would hope that everyone would try to play to their ability, and get a little better along the way.
And getting back to the OP, even Beatles didn't try to play She Said, She Said live. One of the reasons they quit touring was that they knew they couldn't recreate a live version of their studio songs.

To be fair, they only played 30-40 minute long shows, even as late as ‘66. Touring had become insane, unsafe(they almost got killed in the Phillipines), and if you’ve seen that Budokan video(where the crowd was relatively quiet)they realized how sloppy they gotten as a live band(because they—and anybody else—-couldn’t hear themselves for all the screaming. It wasn’t like they made a priority of doing new material live anyway; in the Germany ‘66 vid, they still opened up with “Rock and Roll Music”, a cover.

 

[Hurricane Jimmie]

To be fair, they only played 30-40 minute long shows, even as late as ‘66. Touring had become insane, unsafe(they almost got killed in the Phillipines), and if you’ve seen that Budokan video(where the crowd was relatively quiet)they realized how sloppy they gotten as a live band(because they—and anybody else—-couldn’t hear themselves for all the screaming. It wasn’t like they made a priority of doing new material live anyway; in the Germany ‘66 vid, they still opened up with “Rock and Roll Music”, a cover.

Agree completely. They were ready to move on musically and didn't want to Beatlemania anymore. I read where near the end they had talked about just showing up unannounced at small pubs and playing just like the old days... but that fell through.

 

[JimmyM]

I recently realized that I've been posting some grumpy old man comments... Sorry about that, but here's one more.
This is a companion to the "repetitious parts are a drag" thread.
Have you run into situations where your bandmates asked to dumb down a song? One example: A few years ago, a band I was in wanted to try "She Said She Said" by the Beatles. The bridge has time changes (listening in my head right now): three bars of 4/4, one bar of 2/4, seven bars of 3/4. The guys were tripping over it, so for the next rehearsal, I wrote out lead sheets and sort of tried to conduct. No good. Of course, no one but me had actually played along with the recording; they just thought "cool song" and went for an internet lyric sheet, which naturally had nothing about timing.
The guys suggested that we simply make it all 4/4. I think one look at my face made them decide to jettison the tune, instead.

That's the best idea. I love the song myself, but it will never make a live performance, and I don't think people care about it enough when they go out to listen to music to add to a setlist anyway. But yes, I've been in bands that want to dumb down things from time to time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Case by case basis.

 

[Michedelic]

That was primarily Paul’s idea, John and George were quite over it; the Apple rooftop set was the only fruition of that idea, and, like any band playing an outside gig, they got shut down by the cops.

 

[dougjwray]

I like the point about intelligent rearranging vs lame fails. I could imagine a high class outfit like, say, the Kronos Quartet doing a 4/4 arrangement of the aforementioned "Whipping Post"... Or Pink Floyd's "Money"... They would be kind of "ironic" statements. But a bar band doing that would be viewed as obviously lazy or inept. And those audiences DO notice when something is off, especially the people who sing along. They might not think, "Hey, they took out all of the meter changes!" But they will think something's off, or the band kind of sucked.

 

[JimmyM]

I like the point about intelligent rearranging vs lame fails. I could imagine a high class outfit like, say, the Kronos Quartet doing a 4/4 arrangement of the aforementioned "Whipping Post"... Or Pink Floyd's "Money"... They would be kind of "ironic" statements. But a bar band doing that would be viewed as obviously lazy or inept. And those audiences DO notice when something is off, especially the people who sing along. They might not think, "Hey, they took out all of the meter changes!" But they will think something's off, or the band kind of sucked.

Not if it's a great rearrangement. A great rearrangement is a great rearrangement no matter who does it.

 

[dougjwray]

Not if it's a great rearrangement. A great rearrangement is a great rearrangement no matter who does it.

Agreed, if it's a fantastic bar band. I think all of us can distinguish between something done with panache, and something borne of incompetence.

 

[crankypants]

The dropped beat in the second verse of "Ring of Fire" comes to mind. The thing there is the anticipation of whether the band is going to dumb it down or not.

 

[Shalto]

I've gone through this with my previous band.

We wrote a song (the only one that really ever took off - small scale) in 7/8. The song had a breakdown where the song dropped dynamically to very soft, guitar-led quiet part into a build-up towards last chorus (a very original idea I guess you have never heard of...).

On the recorded version, this section of the song had the drummer lightly tapping on the ride, riding the cymbal dynamically with the chord-changes and lyrics. It sounded pretty good to me. Come mix-time, by BL's sole decision, the drummers contribution on this part was muted leaving the guitar totally alone. Also, my bassline - leading into a build-up, was cut off.

Guitarist had serious problems keeping the time, not only messing up timing but also time signature.
So, for a couple of months we played the song live, and drummer would tap on the hihat extremely lightly, almost more a visual cue than anything else, to help keep time in this quiet part of the song.

Later our BL, who wanted the live version to match recorded version more, wouldn't allow any help from the drummer, thus turning the part into an embarrassing train-wreck. So, after many tries to ease the situation for the guitar player (BL categorically rejected every suggestion) they decided (I was strongly against) to change the time signature of that part into 4/4, noting that nobody would pretty much notice (remember, the recording had some airplay at that moment, and this was pretty much our only "hit" and last song of the set).

Of course people noticed, and many fellow musicians commented on the change, citing that they liked the part better when it was 7/8. Also, they felt that changing the part dumbed down the build-up, and changed the tension that the part previously had. I agreed, and still do.

The funny part is, the BL also insested that changing minute details on (other) songs would totally destroy them, and they had to be learned almost note-to-note.

Strange tale. I'll admit to messing with other people's songs because I don't like how they play it, but simplifying something you can do later is a weird choice to me. What would be the encouragement to offer? You don't even have to say "you can do it", they already know they can do it and have a recording as evidence.