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E#. Wait, what?

See, that's a common misconception. Yes when the notation calls for an E# you would play what is normally an F on your instrument, but you are in fact playing E# not F.

The reason it's an E# is you are in a sharp key that contains an F#...you can't have both an F and F# in any scale, so if the key calls for a note a half step below F#, that note is E#. Period. The same logic applies to B#.

The key of C# major contains an E# (in fact all the notes in the key are sharped, including B#) but many players will simply call the key as Db major instead. Db major does contain an F natural (flat keys only contain flatted notes, never sharped; the opposite is true for sharp keys).

When I go around the circle of fifths I usually name the keys this way, by flats rather than sharps:

C -> F -> Bb -> Eb -> Ab -> Db -> Gb -> B -> E -> A -> D -> G -> C

That avoids having to use E#, B#, etc. but you will find that in Gb major you have a Cb :roflmao:

That's the one major key where you're screwed either way... Whether you call it F# major or Gb major you get an oddball note:

Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F

F# G# A# B C# D# E#

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

In far more technical words you properly explained what I was trying to say in my first paragraph, in all honesty thank you :thumbsup:

To clarify on what I meant by "practical use", I had something like this in my mind...two guys jamming together on a song and someone goes "What's the first note you just played on bass?" (1st fret on the E string) and the guy goes "F". It would be kind of weird to answer back with "E#". That's what I meant by "practical use". As you could probably tell from my first try at explaining the reason for it in musical notation, I'm generally a practical use guy lol.
 
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The point to all my posts on this thread are to simply tell the musicians who aren't all "into" theory that they are just fine, and not to let snobs look down at them.

Ironically, it wasn't the educated "snobs" looking down on the OP -- it was his own bandmates, who don't seem to have a clue what an "E#" actually is. It seems to me that a little bit of theory knowledge could have avoided the misunderstanding in the OP's story entirely.
 
Ironically, it wasn't the educated "snobs" looking down on the OP -- it was his own bandmates, who don't seem to have a clue what an "E#" actually is. It seems to me that a little bit of theory knowledge could have avoided the misunderstanding in the OP's story entirely.

True, but some people got pretty high horsey about the key of F# pretty quick on here.
 
True, but some people got pretty high horsey about the key of F# pretty quick on here.
To be fair, they are responding to posts that say things like, "there is no E#," or "E# is the same as F," which are both wrong. E# sounds the same as F in equal temperament, but there are times where one is more correct than the other and using the right spelling can make the difference between playing a right note and playing a clam. I get that the distinction may not matter to many here, but for those of us who play music where it sometimes actually matters, it gets very frustrating to see so much misinformation.
 
To be fair, they are responding to posts that say things like, "there is no E#," or "E# is the same as F," which are both wrong. E# sounds the same as F in equal temperament, but there are times where one is more correct than the other and using the right spelling can make the difference between playing a right note and playing a clam. I get that the distinction may not matter to many here, but for those of us who play music where it sometimes actually matters, it gets very frustrating to see so much misinformation.

No matter how many ways you say it, E# IS the same as F. It isn't misinformation. The only difference comes when you are playing in two keys, that could just as easily be notated differently.

If I did my sheet music in Gb, how would that make it any different than if I did it in F#? You would play it exactly the same, only in one, you would be thinking "F" whenever you played F, and in the other, you would be thinking "E#" whenever you play F.

It is just as correct to say there "is no E#" as it is to say there "is E#."

And in the case of rock bands, you would right a lot more often with the first one than the second. It is a distinction without a difference.
 
See, that's a common misconception. Yes when the notation calls for an E# you would play what is normally an F on your instrument, but you are in fact playing E# not F.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I always thought that the goal of playing music with other people was to make things as simple and easy to understand as possible with the intention of sounding good.
Occasionally I play with people who are, in my opinion, way too hung up on theory. Seems like they find joy in throwing "curve balls" in an effort to prove that they are somehow musically superior. But it usually has the result of F#@*ing things up.
 
The funny thing about all of this is that 100 years ago you'd probably find 10-year-old kids who had studied music and would know the difference between an F and an E#.

Now people know so little that they call an E# "weird." :rollno:

For the "E# is F" crowd I would ask one question: Why are you even bothering posting about it? If the attitude is that the distinction doesn't matter then why even engage in a discussion about it in the first place. Seems to me it's probably borne of an anti-intellectual chip on the shoulder more than anything else.

Here's the rub:

If you're saying "E# is F" then you're spreading musical misinformation.

If you're trying to explain why and when they are different (and can correctly) then you are trying to educate.

If you're just saying "it doesn't matter" then you're just adding noise.
 
The only notable (completed) symphony written explicitly in F# Major is Erich Wolfgang Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp major, Op. 40 of 1950.

Gustav Mahler's unfinished Tenth Symphony is in this key. So is Olivier Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie, as several of its movements including the finale are in that key, although it could be excluded on the grounds that it is very far from traditionally tonal.

In short, few fretted bass players ever muddle about with F# Major.

It's not necessarily more difficult to literally sit down and write it. But transposing it in a way that everyone gets the same impression is difficult....

For example:
Concert Pitch - C Key of F# Maj
C instruments: F#
Bb Instruments: E
G Instruments: C# (Db )
F Instruments: B# (C )
Eb Instruments: A

vs.

Concert Pitch - C Key of Gb Maj
C instruments: Gb
Bb Instruments: Eb
G Instruments: Db
F Instruments: C maj
Eb Instruments: Bbb (A)

In any case just the major keys become a huge pain when transposing, with two very commonly keyed instruments having to move out of flats because their keys don't make any sense, while it's only true of one in Gb.

If your piece moves to the dominant V chord in a transposition you have
Concert Pitch - C Key of F# Maj --> V/I = C# (8 sharps) /F#

Where as in Gb...
Concert Pitch - C Key of Gb Maj -->v/I = C (no sharp/no flat) / Gb

And if you do shifting tonic (something very common in Tonal Harmony)...
V/ii --> D# (what...11 sharps?)/G#
vs.
V/ii --> Eb/Ab

It can go on and on...in general. F# is just a key needed for very specific events...they're rare.

Of course, a lot of rock songs are actually in F#, but that's because they're in "G" on instruments transposed down a half step...
 
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The funny thing about all of this is that 100 years ago you'd probably find 10-year-old kids who had studied music and would know the difference between an F and an E#.

Now people know so little that they call an E# "weird." :rollno:

For the "E# is F" crowd I would ask one question: Why are you even bothering posting about it? If the attitude is that the distinction doesn't matter then why even engage in a discussion about it in the first place. Seems to me it's probably borne of an anti-intellectual chip on the shoulder more than anything else.

Here's the rub:

If you're saying "E# is F" then you're spreading musical misinformation.

If you're trying to explain why and when they are different (and can correctly) then you are trying to educate.

If you're just saying "it doesn't matter" then you're just adding noise.

It is not musical misinformation. They are the exact same note. I am bothering posting about it because I know ten tons of good players who don't do theory, and they don't need to be talked down to, that there is some magical difference in a note because of what you said it was on a piece of paper. In PRACTICE E# is exactly F. There is absolutely not one tiny, microscopic bit of difference between the two.

I have not rolled my eyes. I have not accused anyone of some psychological need to prove they're smart. In the circles where we are sight-reading, then E# is NOT F. In most circles where fretted bass guitars are used, there is no difference.

NOT musical misinformation. FACT.
 
In the key of Am or C....... The guy was just being a smart ass. I know in theory you don't want to have the same note name in a scale but that is theory and we live in the real world. If some one called a tune out in a live gig in the key of E# everyone in the band would think he is a smart ass( and the drummer would probably through a cymbal at them).
 
It is not musical misinformation. They are the exact same note. I am bothering posting about it because I know ten tons of good players who don't do theory, and they don't need to be talked down to, that there is some magical difference in a note because of what you said it was on a piece of paper. In PRACTICE E# is exactly F. There is absolutely not one tiny, microscopic bit of difference between the two.

I have not rolled my eyes. I have not accused anyone of some psychological need to prove they're smart. In the circles where we are sight-reading, then E# is NOT F. In most circles where fretted bass guitars are used, there is no difference.

NOT musical misinformation. FACT.

Nope.

They're not the same note. They're the same pitch (in 12-TET). There's a difference.
 
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In PRACTICE E# is exactly F. There is absolutely not one tiny, microscopic bit of difference between the two.

Absolutely 100% wrong.

Why?

Because of one thing: function.

An F and an E# are going to function differently depending on the harmonic context.

If I play an F during the G7 of a G7–>CMaj7 progression I better resolve that F downward to the E (7th of G7 resolving down to 3rd of CMaj7).

If I play an E# in the C#7 of a C#7–>F#Maj7 progression then I better resolve that E# upward to the F# (3rd of C#7 resolving up to Root of F#Maj7).

^ These are what musical facts look like.

Say it doesn't matter in rock music all you like, but that's ultimately off-topic and a dodge.
 
No there isn't. 43.7 hertz makes a pitch. It also makes a note. It is what it is. It is an F. You can call it an E# all you want, but that doesn't make it any less of an F.

Sorry, but no music scholar I know of would agree with you.

A pitch is an abstract designation for our perception of the highness or lowness of the fundamental frequency of a sound.

A note is an actual musical event.

That's just the way it goes.
 
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Absolutely 100% wrong.

Why?

Because of one thing: function.

An F and an E# are going to function differently depending on the harmonic context.

If I play an F during the G7 of a G7–>CMaj7 progression I better resolve that F downward to the E (7th of G7 resolving down to 3rd of CMaj7).

If I play an E# in the C#7 of a C#7–>F#Maj7 progression then I better resolve that E# upward to the F# (3rd of C#7 resolving up to Root of F#Maj7).

^ These are what musical facts look like.

Say it doesn't matter in rock music all you like, but that's ultimately off-topic and a dodge.

Yes, a dog and a K-9 are completely different things.
A K-9 works for the police so his function is totally different than a dogs.
They may look the same and may even sound the same when they bark.
But don't be fooled into thinking that they are the same animal.
 
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Yes and a dog and a K-9 are completely different things.
A K-9 works for the police so his function is totally different than a dogs.
They may look the same and may even sound the same when they bark.
But don't be fooled into thinking that they are the same animal.

And apparently a professional comedian and a random guy on a bass forum are NOT the same thing…

Who knew?
 
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Look, for the people that say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. But there is a difference. If you do anything where you have to abstractly think about the keys, there's a difference. Otherwise it actually would make things more difficult, IN THAT WORLD, and I think that's what everyone who says it doesn't matter doesn't get. Your world isn't THE world. Tho it is the OP's world, and most often my world ;-)
 
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