early post CBS vs modern fender quality??

[TheBassHorse]

So, ive been wondering about this, and ive heard different things from different people about this topic- How drastic is the quality shift between early post CBS fender basses from 1966-1974 and modern USA basses from 2000 on?

Id love to own a pre-CBS bass, of course, but the price range is a bit of a stretch for me. Im 22, in grad school, and cant drop 10,000 on a 64 j bass like i want to. Ive got a fender Custom classic from 2003 or so, and its a great sounding high end fender bass from the custom shop (albeit different from the passive basses). How drastic is the difference between that and a '72 j bass. Is it worth investing in? I could probably snag one for 3500 or so. Or is it similar to an american standard of today, just with an inflated price tag?

I love the look of the early 70s basses with the block inlays and the binding, but how much of a difference is there in reality between the new stuff and older post CBS basses?

I keep hearing that from '75 to the mid eighties, the basses really suck.

 

[bassbully]

This is a widely debated subject. Some will say the Fenders made today play as good and sound as good if not better than pre CBS and late 70's on up. While this might be true they are not vintage in looks or feel and are not collectible. To some the collectability tone, feel and look is important over say a today's MIA fender that they will take the plunge seek them out and pay the price. Its totally up to you. I like 70's Fenders for the reasons i already stated but you must play each one and decide what works for you.

 

[Pilgrim]

I have a '63 P (very much Pre-CBS) and a 2000 MIM Jazz. There is no perceptible difference in fit, finish or hardware. I have said many times that the MIM Fender plays and sounds just as good as the pre-CBS model.

It's reasonable to note that Fender mass-produces instruments, and they always have. Early instruments didn't benefit from the computer-based equipment now used to turn out bodies and other parts, so more hand-fitting was required. Whether this is a plus or not may be in the eye of the beholder.

Certainly it is known that there are variations in Fender instruments, and some are better overall then others; this is typical of mass-produced instruments. I do hear from those who have owned them that variations in the instruments - especially body weight - were somewhat extreme in the time period you mention.

However, my MIM Jazz (bought sight unseen on Ebay) is evidence that there are good ones from recent production runs out there...and there continue to be constant threads on TB and other forums discussing very nice instruments from the mid-70's to the mid-eighties.

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned...and the evidence is in my music room...you CAN BUY an instrument made today or in recent years, even an MIM, that sounds every bit as good and plays as well as a pre-CBS instrument. For a player rather than a collector, the money it takes to buy a pre-CBS bass is, in my opinion, totally unjustifiable and unnecessary.

 

[Batmensch]

As far as 70's basses sucking, in my experience with a '78 P-bass, that's just not 100% true.

 

[Spinal Tapper]

IME, you have to try before you buy when it comes to getting a good vintage Fender. There's dogs out there, and great players.

(I'll use the term "vintage" lightly for the older players/collectors on TB don't wanna offend anyone, as some don't consider 70's Fenders to be vintage)

Good deals can be had though, just have patience. I have an ash body/maple fretboard 75 P that I just picked up recently with a Jazz PU routed, and it plays awesome, isn't that heavy, about 9 lbs, and sounds fantastic. I also picked up a 1962 P back in April for a KILLER price. Refinned body, and refinned neck, that has a Jazz PU added. Mostly original though. (I'm really starting to love P/J's LOL)

If you want to save some money and just get a great vintage player, look for refins, extra routing (P/J's), missing/replaced hardware, etc. The deal breaker for me is original PU's. If you want that vintage tone, gotta have original PU's. Not sure if this is just psychological, but it works for me!

Obviously, the value will be lower if you snag a modded Fender, but you can still get a great deal on an old bass.

 

[Meddle]

Once again I have to say, what is suddenly with all this 1970s Fender love going on? Is it the recession or does everybody just want a vintage Fender?

For the longest time I remember 1970s Fenders being panned for inconsistent weight, poor fit and finish, mobile three-bolt necks, useless micro-tilt adjusters and weak pickups. Now it seems everybody would crawl over a mile of broken glass for one.

 

[pasta4lnch]

For the longest time I remember 1970s Fenders being panned for inconsistent weight, poor fit and finish, mobile three-bolt necks, useless micro-tilt adjusters and weak pickups. Now it seems everybody would crawl over a mile of broken glass for one.

^^ question.

Is it the recession or does everybody just want a vintage Fender?

^^ answer

I'll take a new one anyday!

 

[Spinal Tapper]

Once again I have to say, what is suddenly with all this 1970s Fender love going on? Is it the recession or does everybody just want a vintage Fender?

For the longest time I remember 1970s Fenders being panned for inconsistent weight, poor fit and finish, mobile three-bolt necks, useless micro-tilt adjusters and weak pickups. Now it seems everybody would crawl over a mile of broken glass for one.

Maybe my point was misunderstood. I think the idea, at least for me, is getting a DEAL on a 70's Fender - like paying the same price as you would for a new Fender, Skyline, G&L, etc ($1000-1500) It gives us guys who appreciate old gear a neat alternative to new stuff for that price range, and can't afford the really old overpriced stuff.

No way in hell I'd pay top dollar for a 70's Fender though. At least not what some of these dealers are asking. Even the OP saying he'd drop $3500 on a 70's Jazz, no way I'd even consider that much dough. For that much coin, I'd be looking for a beat 60's. And those deals ARE out there! Especially in this market!

 

[Chasarms]

. . . For a player rather than a collector, the money it takes to buy a pre-CBS bass is, in my opinion, totally unjustifiable and unnecessary.

I couldn't agree more. The "investment" attitude of the collectors and the increasing rarity of these instruments has inflated the costs of these instruments to the point where they are really no longer a musical instrument. They're becoming like the towels in the guest bath. Don't actually use them. They are only there to look at.

When I started playing in the mid-eighties, the pre-CBS stuff was already expensive, but the 70s stuff could be had all day and twice on Sunday for nothing. Partly because it was not metal flake and pointy, but also because it was not perceived as high quality at all.

Sure there are some really nice instruments from the 70s, but as Pilgram stated, there are nice instruments from any era.

IMO, the reason the 70s vintage market is becoming so popular is because 60s vintage market has become far too expensive for most to play in.

 

[Meddle]

A beater that is a player would be a good investment like your PJ yeah. I guess it is purely luck of the draw. Perhaps OP wants to hear people saying something in this thread, but I think the answer is find THE bass, play THE bass and don't be scared to walk away. No pot luck.

I'm always a bit doubtful of the vintage market anyway (as if I have the cash anyway). Afterall a 1970s Fender could just be something a dude made out of Mighty Mite parts in his shed last week with an ebay decal to go with it....

Its like buying a 2nd hand car and having to check the previous owner did not sneak lada parts into the internal workings.

 

[king_biscuit]

Once again I have to say, what is suddenly with all this 1970s Fender love going on? Is it the recession or does everybody just want a vintage Fender?

For the longest time I remember 1970s Fenders being panned for inconsistent weight, poor fit and finish, mobile three-bolt necks, useless micro-tilt adjusters and weak pickups. Now it seems everybody would crawl over a mile of broken glass for one.

There is nothing sudden about it. Demand for 70s Fenders has grown since the 90s. Most of the typical drivel about 70s Fenders comes from oft repeted wives tales from a group of people with very little actual experience with the instruments. It actually turns out that most 70s Fenders were not all that heavy and are in fact fine instruments. Some of us don't care as much for the new Fenders and would rather pay a little more for a nice 70s model. Im quite sure, however, that this will continue to piss off the old hippies who gave them away a few years ago.

 

[Spinal Tapper]

A beater that is a player would be a good investment like your PJ yeah. I guess it is purely luck of the draw. Perhaps OP wants to hear people saying something in this thread, but I think the answer is find THE bass, play THE bass and don't be scared to walk away. No pot luck.

I'm always a bit doubtful of the vintage market anyway (as if I have the cash anyway). Afterall a 1970s Fender could just be something a dude made out of Mighty Mite parts in his shed last week with an ebay decal to go with it....

Its like buying a 2nd hand car and having to check the previous owner did not sneak lada parts into the internal workings.

I totally agree.

I also like your "crawling through glass to get one" reference.

I'm gonna start using that

 

[bassbully]

There is nothing sudden about it. Demand for 70s Fenders has grown since the 90s. Most of the typical drivel about 70s Fenders comes from oft repeted wives tales from a group of people with very little actual experience with the instruments. It actually turns out that most 70s Fenders were not all that heavy and are in fact fine instruments. Some of us don't care as much for the new Fenders and would rather pay a little more for a nice 70s model. Im quite sure, however, that this will continue to piss off the old hippies who gave them away a few years ago.

I agree here. As Fenders become older and harder to find the cost and demand will rise. No matter what others say and how they diss 70's Fender's they are collectable. I feel allot of the folks who put them down are ones who cant afford them, hate fenders or gave theirs away cheaply.

Nothing can become collectable or rise in value unless there is interest and a market. There is such a market and some people just need to get over it. Anything can become collectable if there is an interest...anything.

Even if a new MIA P bass sounded as good as a 70's P bass it would not give me the satisfaction of owning an older well broke in Fender from the 70's. The tone, looks and vibe I want can only come from that time period. I cant afford a Pre CBS Fender and with the current down turn in the market this is a great time to buy a 70's Fender. BTW, Fender tried with the Road worns to carve into this market but IMO for the price they want for those basses.... failed .

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

My take: Today's P/J basses are the best that Fender has made, period. Better electronics, better materials, better finishes and MUCH better QC.

However, a bass that survives from say 1969 to today is likely VERY broken in and could be quite nice - nice in a way that a new bass can not duplicate.

Pre-CBS Fenders had QA issues as well, but they were a MUCH smaller company, so the examples in the market are smaller... scarcity = price. And some were pretty darned cool (Some were awful, like any mass-production situation with so-so QC).

Also, I have to comment on this:

There is nothing sudden about it. Demand for 70s Fenders has grown since the 90s. Most of the typical drivel about 70s Fenders comes from oft repeted wives tales from a group of people with very little actual experience with the instruments. It actually turns out that most 70s Fenders were not all that heavy and are in fact fine instruments. Some of us don't care as much for the new Fenders and would rather pay a little more for a nice 70s model. Im quite sure, however, that this will continue to piss off the old hippies who gave them away a few years ago.

Well, the "Drivel" I have been happy to sprew comes from personal experience as a gigging musician in the 1970s. I owned a new '77 J bass that was an utter piece of back-breaking firewood. I personally owned a '78 P-bass that was better, but not in any way great. I picked-up, checked-out, borrowed and noodled on countless 1970's Fenders in the store, when they were hanging on the wall brand new or slightly used - So, from my perspective, it is no "Wife's tale". In fact, I saw three - count 'em, three - 1970's P-basses hanging on the wall at the GC in Pasadena, so I decided to challenge my memories - - I played all three, just to make sure my recollection of their crapulance was NOT exaggerated. I was relived, and a bit saddened, to see that it was not. They were all dogs. That doesn't mean that there weren't good examples out there - that just means I have yet to play one.

Just because something is old, does NOT make it great.

 

[bubinga5]

I love 60's 70's Fenders...BUT being the mine field that early Fenders are, i think you should tread carefully...Not sure all that hassle is worth it? Or maybe it is...Would never pay £5000 + for a 60's Fender but i would love to have one....to be honest i would rather get Sei, Alleva, Nordstrand, to make me the bass from bass heaven...bet it would sound as good as an early Fender..

 

[king_biscuit]

Well, the "Drivel" I have been happy to sprew comes from personal experience as a gigging musician in the 1970s. I owned a new '77 J bass that was an utter piece of back-breaking firewood. I personally owned a '78 P-bass that was better, but not in any way great. I picked-up, checked-out, borrowed and noodled on countless 1970's Fenders in the store, when they were hanging on the wall brand new or slightly used - So, from my perspective, it is no "Wife's tale". In fact, I saw three - count 'em, three - 1970's P-basses hanging on the wall at the GC in Pasadena, so I decided to challenge my memories - - I played all three, just to make sure my recollection of their crapulance was NOT exaggerated. I was relived, and a bit saddened, to see that it was not. They were all dogs. That doesn't mean that there weren't good examples out there - that just means I have yet to play one.

Just because something is old, does NOT make it great.

Really Harry, you have never played one nice 70s Fender? Based on your posts here about older Fenders and your continual factual mis-statements about them (like your insistence that Fullerton reissues are junk because they are CBS Fenders, or that 70s Fenders had wider necks than current Fenders), I think you just have an ax to grind for some reason. btw, the last 50s Fender I worked on (a 58 Precision) had an S curve so bad in the neck, that I had to make a new nut and cheat the strings to the bass side to keep them on the fingerboard. I guess all 50s Fenders suck too! It's possible that you just don't like them, or that you have never played one that was properly set up. As far as new Fenders being as good or better than old ones, I suppose to an engineer like you parts fitting together is all you are going to notice, but those of us that test with our ears, I think , will find that they certainly do not sound the as good as the old ones -- especially the Jazz basses. For anyone interested in a vintage bass, it is very simple, find one that is unmodified, with a straight neck, and in a weight you find comfortable... Now back to the mis-information


edit: let me add a bit more personal experience: look at my profile and you will notice I have a few nice basses. If I could only keep one it would be my 9 pound 76 Jazz bass, and if two I would add my 8.7 pound Fullerton reissue Jazz bass. Wow, two CBS Fenders...

 

[smcd]

So, ive been wondering about this, and ive heard different things from different people about this topic- How drastic is the quality shift between early post CBS fender basses from 1966-1974 and modern USA basses from 2000 on?

Id love to own a pre-CBS bass, of course, but the price range is a bit of a stretch for me. Im 22, in grad school, and cant drop 10,000 on a 64 j bass like i want to. Ive got a fender Custom classic from 2003 or so, and its a great sounding high end fender bass from the custom shop (albeit different from the passive basses). How drastic is the difference between that and a '72 j bass. Is it worth investing in? I could probably snag one for 3500 or so. Or is it similar to an american standard of today, just with an inflated price tag?

I love the look of the early 70s basses with the block inlays and the binding, but how much of a difference is there in reality between the new stuff and older post CBS basses?

I keep hearing that from '75 to the mid eighties, the basses really suck.

Wow.... I wish I had $3,500 to blow on a bass when I was a student...

Most of what you hear about the mythical qualities of pre-CBS Fenders is just that. Myth. I have or have owned Precisions from '65, '71, '72, '89, '94. All were US made, all were good basses. The early 70's Precisions were super nice. As nice as any 60's P-basses I've seen. But would I pay $3,500 for one of them?? No way on God's Green Earth.

Buy a US-made Fender vintage reissue for 1/3rd of you budget. You'll be just as happy, and have a boatload of money to spend on, well... another US-made Fender vintage reissue.

 

[bassbully]

Just because something is old, does NOT make it great.[/QUOTE]

Why would you buy a 77' backbreaking piece of firewood in the first place?
You are right on the just because something is old doesnt make it great...or does new. Since i have got back to bass playing the only basses I have thought were really good for the money in Fender's line were the MIM classic series a few MIJ and the off brand Squier VM and CV lines. I am not overly impressed by today's MIA line for the money. I have had many chance's to buy them from the 1990's to 2009 models and bought the basses i listed before over them, saved money and got a bass that played and sounded just as good.

So i guess one day i will bash the 2000 fenders as average and dull dogs in the day....No, just over priced and hyped v.s. other models in their lines they did not offer in the 60's and 70's.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Really Harry, you have never played one nice 70s Fender? Based on your posts here about older Fenders and your continual factual mis-statements about them (like your insistence that Fullerton reissues are junk because they are CBS Fenders, or that 70s Fenders had wider necks than current Fenders), I think you just have an ax to grind for some reason. btw, the last 50s Fender I worked on (a 58 Precision) had an S curve so bad in the neck, that I had to make a new nut and cheat the strings to the bass side to keep them on the fingerboard. I guess all 50s Fenders suck too! It's possible that you just don't like them, or that you have never played one that was properly set up. As far as new Fenders being as good or better than old ones, I suppose to an engineer like you parts fitting together is all you are going to notice, but those of us that test with our ears, I think , will find that they certainly do not sound the as good as the old ones -- especially the Jazz basses. For anyone interested in a vintage bass, it is very simple, find one that is unmodified, with a straight neck, and in a weight you find comfortable... Now back to the mis-information


edit: let me add a bit more personal experience: look at my profile and you will notice I have a few nice basses. If I could only keep one it would be my 9 pound 76 Jazz bass, and if two I would add my 8.7 pound Fullerton reissue Jazz bass. Wow, two CBS Fenders...

I didn't say "NEVER" - I said that they were rare indeed.

This is all subjective, no doubt - but this mania for ANYTHING that is over 30 years old is just silly. Bad is bad, no matter how old... To those that insist CBS fenders are somehow "vintage" I say put an 8-track in your AMC Pacer and live large!

 

[johnk_10]

Really Harry, you have never played one nice 70s Fender? Based on your posts here about older Fenders and your continual factual mis-statements about them (like your insistence that Fullerton reissues are junk because they are CBS Fenders, or that 70s Fenders had wider necks than current Fenders), I think you just have an ax to grind for some reason........
.......... It's possible that you just don't like them, or that you have never played one that was properly set up. As far as new Fenders being as good or better than old ones, I suppose to an engineer like you parts fitting together is all you are going to notice, but those of us that test with our ears, I think , will find that they certainly do not sound the as good as the old ones -- especially the Jazz basses. For anyone interested in a vintage bass, it is very simple, find one that is unmodified, with a straight neck, and in a weight you find comfortable... Now back to the mis-information

+1!