early post CBS vs modern fender quality??

[panama]

Most Fenders (P and J) I've played have sounded similar regardless of the age. When you buy a vintage instrument you are paying for a collectors item and you're paying for mojo.

Personally I like the idea that I am the person who is breaking in my AV 62 P and in 40 years I can look at it and know that all that mojo is MY mojo. Not someone else's mojo!

That said - if I had the money I would buy a pre-CBS as a collectors/investment piece and probably only record with it.

 

[bassbully]

I didn't say "NEVER" - I said that they were rare indeed.

This is all subjective, no doubt - but this mania for ANYTHING that is over 30 years old is just silly. Bad is bad, no matter how old... To those that insist CBS fenders are somehow "vintage" I say put an 8-track in your AMC Pacer and live large!

Remember ..we or shall i say the 70's and pre CBS loving fender TB folks didnt make this market or call them vintage others did ..dealer's, the market what ever. I dont think there is a "Mania". Just some folks like certain thing's like older basses,vintage tones, looks etc that only reliced/fake one's could try to get close to today.

In my state if I am not mistaken a car 25 year's and older is considered "Historical" and you can get the plates for them. That would make that 8 track playin AMC Pacer an historical car and it would sure turn my head if it drove by LOL.

 

[nostatic]

I've played some terrible pre-CBS instruments. I've played a few nice 70's Fenders (and owned a great '77 Tele Deluxe back in...'77). As another person who was gigging in the 70's (albeit as a guitarist), and worked at Guitar Center back then (seeing a *lot* of instruments) I can say that *in general* it was not the best span of Fender production. Frankly, I would have to agree that right now Fender (both in the US and Mexico) are producing the most consistent instruments I've seen. I still have found that the "special" ones require some hunting. But the average quality bar is higher.

My local shop has a bunch of different Fenders from '63 on up. They just got a '75 P bass with an A neck and someone had added a J pup (very well done). The thing sounded great and was reasonable weight. The neck, even though it was narrow, felt like a freakin' baseball bat. Pretty much every other new Fender in the shop had a more playable neck (to me). But the '75 has some wear and was "cooler."

I'm willing to pay money for a bass that speaks to me. My Deep 5 is worth the price to me as it is unique and does something that other basses can't. Spending $4K on a semi-vintage (like Harry, I can't call a 70's instrument vintage without giggling a little) p-bass? Probably not. Then again, I'm not a collector, and I play what I own wherever/whenever. I'm certainly not going to spend $6K on a pre-CBS P-bass just to let it sit in a safe. So at that point it becomes about opportunity cost - what else could that $6K buy and what is my return? I could see it if I found the jaw-dropping "OMG" old P-bass...but to date I haven't found that. I've played some nice old one and some crappy ones. I've played a few nice 70's instruments and some crappy ones. I've played a few nice new ones, and mostly "decent-to-good" ones.

Just depends on what you want and like. For any instrument brand, there are good and bad examples. There is no magic year or model.

 

[king_biscuit]

I'm willing to pay money for a bass that speaks to me. My Deep 5 is worth the price to me as it is unique and does something that other basses can't. Spending $4K on a semi-vintage (like Harry, I can't call a 70's instrument vintage without giggling a little) p-bass? Probably not.

You could have your choice of 70s Fender Precisions for under 2k -- only slightly more than a vintage reissue P and less than an American 75 reissue! btw, I giggle a bit looking at Deep 5s So there is that whole relativity thing...

Here are a couple of examples from a fellow TBer: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=636096
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=679687&highlight=

 

[nostatic]

You could have your choice of 70s Fender Precisions for under 2k -- only slightly more than a vintage reissue P and less than an American 75 reissue! btw, I giggle a bit looking at Deep 5s So there is that whole relativity thing...

Here are a couple of examples from a fellow TBer: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=636096
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=679687&highlight=

Well, horses for courses. For some of my gigs, the Deep 5 is a way better fit than any P-bass would be. And for the other gigs that "should" be a P-bass fit (eg my funk band), I've been able to use the D5 to good effect. Then again, I prefer both fretless and 5-string. I've got a fretted Mouse coming and that will be my first 4-string experiment in over 10 years. I would like to get a P-bass to mess around with, but again, I need to play it before I buy it as the few 70's P-basses I've recently played didn't feel great.

I giggle when I look at this too, but it is a different kind of giggle...more like squealing like a little girl with childish delight

And yes, you can play that in a Steely Dan tribute band...

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and a funk band

Though I certainly would dig a sunburst p-bass...assuming I can play a 4-string again

 

[king_biscuit]

I need to play it before I buy it as the few 70's P-basses I've recently played didn't feel grea

This is a good point. This stuff is pretty subjective. I am not all that concerned about neck profiles like some are. So that is the last think I think about when looking at a bass. The only thing I care about -- assuming there is no damage to a bass -- is tone. I like light weight basses, mainly because I think they sound better than heavier basses. This really has been my point here and in other threads: that is, people need to seek out these instruments and try them, themselves. Stop listening to the cliches and generalizations. btw, as a factual matter, 70s Fenders are still a good deal and most are not that much more expensive than new Fenders. So anyone curious, try them now, don't wait 10 years until they too are out of reach like most 60s models.

 

[nostatic]

Totally agreed on light basses, but for a different reason. That is one reason that I love the D5 - it is a tad over 7lbs. The Mouse that is coming should be a bit under 6lbs. I often play multiple gigs in a day, and also have been known to do 4-5 hour nights. The difference between having a 7lb instrument and a 9.5lb instrument is pretty significant. For tone, as long as I have an articulate instrument I can work the tone a fair amount between fingers, pedals and amp.

I do worry about neck profiles and spacing as I like things to either be about the same or vastly different. For instance I can swap between bass and guitar without much of a problem. The last gig I actually had a bit of an issue going between my D5 and my Zon, mostly due to the scale length difference - though not how you'd imagine. With the RA the bridge position and body length/shape make the 35" scale feel a lot shorter. So what happens is the 5th fret (for instance) is in a different spot relative to my body with the two basses. For some gigs it is a non issue but in others where I'm reading/playing complicated tunes and have to be precise, it can throw me for the first few bars.

The other issue is that for us older farts, there sometimes are physical issues that place constraints on the gear. For instance I have to be very careful about tendonitis. One thing that can cause issues is a long reach to the nut. An advantage to a good 5-string is that I can play up the neck and get the same notes, thus saving some wear and tear on my left wrist. My theory (that I'll test soon) is that a short scale 4-string will work as I can play at the nut all night without any discomfort. But there still is the issue of a 5-string approach/mindset vs 4-string - some some material I'll have to rearrange how I attack the song.

Sorry for the sidetrack - I suppose my main point is that generalizations can be difficult and especially for older instruments I think you really have to play them to determine if they'll work for you. Just because it is old doesn't guarantee it is "good" or "bad."

 

[tycobb73]

In 10 years the same thing will happen to 80s fenders. Its all hype.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Remember ..we or shall i say the 70's and pre CBS loving fender TB folks didnt make this market or call them vintage others did ..dealer's, the market what ever. I dont think there is a "Mania". Just some folks like certain thing's like older basses,vintage tones, looks etc that only reliced/fake one's could try to get close to today.

In my state if I am not mistaken a car 25 year's and older is considered "Historical" and you can get the plates for them. That would make that 8 track playin AMC Pacer an historical car and it would sure turn my head if it drove by LOL.

I believe you have made my point for me! Thanks!

It's interesting how defensive folks get about their fine CBS Fenders. Very amusing. I find myself, as an older guy, in the odd position of defending newer "Things" over "the good old days" - because the "good old days" weren't very good! Cars are a fine parallel: Show me a car made in 1975 that wasn't a piece of junk - and yet I am quite sure someone will leap up and defend their Trans Am or Vega... The fact is, manufacturing techniques are *so* much better today than 35 years ago that it's just not funny. The same applies to musical instruments - at least things like Fender basses (and guitars, for that matter!).

 

[bassbully]

In 10 years the same thing will happen to 80s fenders. Its all hype.

I am not saying you are wrong but i kind of doubt it. In the 80's there were allot more models that came out and fender Japan started along with Squier. This introduced allot more lines of basses the 60's and 70's never had. This could reduce the value due to there being more of them etc. We shall see but if things continue the market will drop as it has been due to all the national issues.

 

[king_biscuit]

I believe you have made my point for me! Thanks!

It's interesting how defensive folks get about their fine CBS Fenders. Very amusing. I find myself, as an older guy, in the odd position of defending newer "Things" over "the good old days" - because the "good old days" weren't very good! Cars are a fine parallel: Show me a car made in 1975 that wasn't a piece of junk - and yet I am quite sure someone will leap up and defend their Trans Am or Vega... The fact is, manufacturing techniques are *so* much better today than 35 years ago that it's just not funny. The same applies to musical instruments - at least things like Fender basses (and guitars, for that matter!).

You are comparing apples to lawn mowers. I'm not going to defend 70s cars, they have nothing to do with vintage Fenders. The most well built and put together bass I own is my 84 Fullerton reissue Jazz bass, it is as perfect as a bass can be in my estimation, from a fit and finish standpoint (I've yet to see a modern Fender with a tighter neck joint, better fret and fingerboard work, or more accurate/crisper pickup routes). And yet it was made with jigs and pin routers like the 60s and 70s basses and not on a modern CNC machine. btw, I'm not all that young either.

Why don't you say what specifically you find so objectionable about CBS Fenders? I've read that you think they are all heavy, and clearly that is not true (I have two light ones right now and have had others, many other TBers have light ones, and I posted a chart a while back with a large sampling of 70s Fenders showing that at least 90% of them were under 10 pounds). You have said they have weak pickups and bad electronics, but they are made today virtually the same as then and still use CTS pots (my own 70s Fenders have wonderful pickups, and the 70s gray bottom pickups are generally very well regarded). Maybe you don't like the finishes, but they are polyurethane just like modern models. You have complained about the three bolt necks, but that was limited to 76-82 Jazz basses never Precisions -- three bolt necks were an invention of Leo fender, btw, and carried over to Musicman and G & L. I myself have never had any trouble with them, but I keep the neck bolts tight, and I'm not throwing the bass around my neck much. At any rate please skip the car analogies!

 

[countrybass007]

By a new "Roadworn" Fender and pretend, though buying a new bass that looks used totally escapes me.

 

[smcd]

I believe you have made my point for me! Thanks!

It's interesting how defensive folks get about their fine CBS Fenders. Very amusing. I find myself, as an older guy, in the odd position of defending newer "Things" over "the good old days" - because the "good old days" weren't very good! Cars are a fine parallel: Show me a car made in 1975 that wasn't a piece of junk - and yet I am quite sure someone will leap up and defend their Trans Am or Vega... The fact is, manufacturing techniques are *so* much better today than 35 years ago that it's just not funny. The same applies to musical instruments - at least things like Fender basses (and guitars, for that matter!).

I think mid-late 70's Fender products were crap. But jumping at the bait, I've owned a couple cars made in '75 (a Cadillac Eldorado and a Buick Electra) that were awesome cars. I wish I still had them.

 

[bassbully]

I believe you have made my point for me! Thanks!

It's interesting how defensive folks get about their fine CBS Fenders. Very amusing. I find myself, as an older guy, in the odd position of defending newer "Things" over "the good old days" - because the "good old days" weren't very good! Cars are a fine parallel: Show me a car made in 1975 that wasn't a piece of junk - and yet I am quite sure someone will leap up and defend their Trans Am or Vega... The fact is, manufacturing techniques are *so* much better today than 35 years ago that it's just not funny. The same applies to musical instruments - at least things like Fender basses (and guitars, for that matter!).

I understand but there isnt really much to improve in a J or P bass and Fender hasnt done them really any diffrent since. They added graphite rods in the necks of some and high mass bridges and possibly pups etc. I dont always agree new is better. My car in the 70's was made way more solid than any car i have owned in the last 10 years. It wasnt as safe or fuel friendly but it had more power and was all metal..besides i could work on them then

 

[king_biscuit]

I think mid-late 70's Fender products were crap.

Except your own 78 Jazz bass?

 

[johnk_10]

i agree about comparing basses to cars being pointless. but if i had one of these 1974 cars, i wouldn't be complaining:

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[nostatic]

here's my old 1979 (with me at the wheel)

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[bassbully]

I Love the 70's!!!!

 

[kesslari]

Really Harry, you have never played one nice 70s Fender? Based on your posts here about older Fenders and your continual factual mis-statements about them (like your insistence that Fullerton reissues are junk because they are CBS Fenders, or that 70s Fenders had wider necks than current Fenders), I think you just have an ax to grind for some reason. btw, the last 50s Fender I worked on (a 58 Precision) had an S curve so bad in the neck, that I had to make a new nut and cheat the strings to the bass side to keep them on the fingerboard. I guess all 50s Fenders suck too! It's possible that you just don't like them, or that you have never played one that was properly set up. As far as new Fenders being as good or better than old ones, I suppose to an engineer like you parts fitting together is all you are going to notice, but those of us that test with our ears, I think , will find that they certainly do not sound the as good as the old ones -- especially the Jazz basses. For anyone interested in a vintage bass, it is very simple, find one that is unmodified, with a straight neck, and in a weight you find comfortable... Now back to the mis-information


edit: let me add a bit more personal experience: look at my profile and you will notice I have a few nice basses. If I could only keep one it would be my 9 pound 76 Jazz bass, and if two I would add my 8.7 pound Fullerton reissue Jazz bass. Wow, two CBS Fenders...

I'm with Harry on this one. Playing in the early 80's, most of the recent (e.g. 70's) Fender P-basses (I'll confess - didn't play many J's) I played were heavy as sin, and didn't impress me as players. I wound up buy G&L, which I liked more than any of the Fenders I could have bought at the time.

I'm not saying (and I don't hear BOH saying) that ALL 70's Fenders were dogs - but I AM saying that not all 70's Fenders are magical gems that are somehow worth several thousand dollars as player's instruments. And that my overwhelming impression of them AT THE TIME, playing a pretty good sampling, was that I wouldn't want to buy and play most of them.

Call me an old wife. I'm old, anyway...

 

[johnk_10]

here's my '76 911. i drove this car for 15 years and put a zillion miles on it: