I think they call that "the plural of anecdote is not data", which is why I never extrapolate my own experience to others. Too many do, and some call themselves experts.
"I dislike '70s Fenders" != "'70s Fenders are poor instruments"
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
early post CBS vs modern fender quality??
- Thread starter TheBassHorse
- Start date
I think they call that "the plural of anecdote is not data", which is why I never extrapolate my own experience to others. Too many do, and some call themselves experts.
"I dislike '70s Fenders" != "'70s Fenders are poor instruments"
25-30 years from now we will be:
-Relishing our opportunities we had today in 2010 to buy "cheap" $1,000-$1,500 jazz basses.
-Talking about the "old" good ones from 2010, before they "got bad".
-Realizing that the "good" old ones from the 60s were good in large part because they aged, and were around so long and NOT because they were from a certain decade or year.
-The CBS era "bad" ones which are now affordable today will be tomorrow's unobtainium basses priced out of the hands of normal people who would otherwise want them, much like most of the pre-CBS ones are now.
This is what I predict. We'll see.
Interesting..hope we all make it to see if your right
I really see only the 60's and 70's and maybe a few odd lots from the 80's ,special issues, MIJ squiers etc going for big buck's someday. There are just so many models these day's ,RIs etc that i feel will weigh the market down. We shall see..hopefully.
Interesting..hope we all make it to see if your right
While there are bargains, relatively speaking, surrounding any era's products, the trend for most is to go up. Price a nice, body-off-frame restored Edsel lately? And those things were HATED when new. Conversely a nice and original 1965 Mustang fastback with a 289, despite it's popularity is an increasingly expensive proposition. Buy the 1977 Burt Reynolds Smokey and the Bandit Trans-Am NOW if you can possibly afford it... ...before it really becomes unobtainum and in the financial stratosphere.
I see so many parallels between the collector car business and musical instruments.
We shall see.
As i said I agree but the big diff is the amount of instruments made today v.s. back in 60's and 70's. Some things are not as collectible due to too many items still on the market and if allot of the item was produced. It takes years for those high mass produced items to fade away and become rare enough to get profitable. Fender's production is allot larger today then that of the 60s' and 70s' and probably 80's making today's basses and guitars a long shot to be collectible for years and years to come. IMO..we shall see.
The question, I think, is not IF there is a profit, but when will such a profit be recouped, and for how much at that moment of recouping. Even like buying a house- whether you buy in a buyer's market or whether you buy in a seller's market has huge implications of WHEN, not IF you can recoup your expenses.
Just my two cents (or more...) on this...
i dont actually have $3,500 sitting around ready to blow, but its not a crazy stretch. I work almost full time. Its entirely possible to have extra money and be in grad school if youre motivated and really WANT to have it.
That being said, i appreciate the responses a lot. From everyone. And Cars!
I'm a younger player(24) and while i didnt grow up in the "good ole' days" or what have you, i think the quality of todays fender's are quite good. Sure they don't have mojo or whatever, but the chance of getting a lemon is quite low. I've been playing since i was in high school and even in that time frame I've seen the Americans and Mexicans get better. The Mexican's in particular. They used to have crappy knobs, thin pickups and came in boring colors. Now they look and sound much better. When i was younger, i was in guitar center every day after school, week after week, year after year, playing fenders. Old used ones, new American ones, cheap Squiers. I felt like every year they got better and better.
Two of my uncles grew up in the 70's and 80s. They both play bass. Their consensus is that Fender along with Gibson, were putting out lots of dogs. Both Guitars and bases. It wasn't just the thick paint or weak pickups or the 3 bolt kneck. It was the horrible routing jobs, Ugly paint jobs(70s sunburst anyone...), crooked hardware, poor tuners(on the guitars), and lesser tone woods being used. They say they remember a big trend amound playings moving towards Imports, like peavy and other brands, because while taste in tone was changing(hi fi sound, new wave) people also felt they were getting better value for their money, even when paying for a cheap japanese instrument.
Now personally, most of my favorite actively performing bassists, such as Carlos Dengler, Peter Hook, or Tim Commerford, etc don't use vintage basses, and yet they have great tone.(Commerford recently even switched to Lakland) This leads me to think that the sonic "superiority" of older bases/guitars is a bit over rated. Sure they look cool, and if you want a funky broken in bass, two thousand bucks ain't bad, but don't kid your self into thinking that 70s basses in general are better than modern fenders or sadowsky's laklands, G&Ls etc etc.
I think market changes have made 70s more expensive. I think their popularity has been constant at least among the bassists i know. Some people love the big headstock, block inlays, binding, etc. No one i know thinks they sounded better, just looked better. But prices are going up, and i don't think many of those same people are willing to shell out just for those features when they can have a better playing/sounding reissue. Some people just want a reliced, beat up "old bass" and since 60s fenders are recockulously expensive, some people ignore the cognitive dissonance and forget CBS and glow over their "vintage" fenders"
Two of my uncles grew up in the 70's and 80s. They both play bass. Their consensus is that Fender along with Gibson, were putting out lots of dogs. Both Guitars and bases. It wasn't just the thick paint or weak pickups or the 3 bolt kneck. It was the horrible routing jobs, Ugly paint jobs(70s sunburst anyone...), crooked hardware, poor tuners(on the guitars), and lesser tone woods being used. They say they remember a big trend amound playings moving towards Imports, like peavy and other brands, because while taste in tone was changing(hi fi sound, new wave) people also felt they were getting better value for their money, even when paying for a cheap japanese instrument.
Now personally, most of my favorite actively performing bassists, such as Carlos Dengler, Peter Hook, or Tim Commerford, etc don't use vintage basses, and yet they have great tone.(Commerford recently even switched to Lakland) This leads me to think that the sonic "superiority" of older bases/guitars is a bit over rated. Sure they look cool, and if you want a funky broken in bass, two thousand bucks ain't bad, but don't kid your self into thinking that 70s basses in general are better than modern fenders or sadowsky's laklands, G&Ls etc etc.
I think market changes have made 70s more expensive. I think their popularity has been constant at least among the bassists i know. Some people love the big headstock, block inlays, binding, etc. No one i know thinks they sounded better, just looked better. But prices are going up, and i don't think many of those same people are willing to shell out just for those features when they can have a better playing/sounding reissue. Some people just want a reliced, beat up "old bass" and since 60s fenders are recockulously expensive, some people ignore the cognitive dissonance and forget CBS and glow over their "vintage" fenders"
To some point i agree and there is nothing wrong with both sides of the fence. Todays basses should be better with the high tech machines and QC companies like Fender and others lacked at times.
I am not going to say a 70's Fender is better than say a Sadowsky or Lakland or another high tech bass made today...they shouldnt be. What I will say is the basses today are still trying to copy the vibe and mojo of that time when those basses were made and improving on them. Thats why fender has RI's and folks like Nash relic. Some people go for a moderen sound with basses made today, some need a bass to look old but is really new and others go back and find the real deal. Its all good.
I have owned several new basses and always felt a bit flat with them. I enjoy a used well played bass with history. This might of been someone elses bass once but it is a broken in bass with a story...I like that and i am willing to pay just a tad more for it. The problem becomes when people just bash anything from say the 70's that Fender put out calling all the basses dogs ...not true! There are dogs put out by every bass company even today and if you buy one you will never look at that company the same way again.
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
- 16,223
- 7,614
- 76
- Disclosures
- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
I hate to nit pick, well no OK, I don't really mind it, but I am sure others will find it annoying, but here goes...
Pre-CBS = before CBS
CBS = during CBS
Post-CBS = after CBS
Yes, I suppose post-CBS might imply "after CBS took over," but most discussions just say CBS, not post-CBS.
Think of it like this: pre-war, war, post-war or pre-game, game, post-game or pre-CBS, CBS, post CBS---Ad Nauseum.
So early post-CBS as in the thread title would be like 1983, no?
Pre-CBS = before CBS
CBS = during CBS
Post-CBS = after CBS
Yes, I suppose post-CBS might imply "after CBS took over," but most discussions just say CBS, not post-CBS.
Think of it like this: pre-war, war, post-war or pre-game, game, post-game or pre-CBS, CBS, post CBS---Ad Nauseum.
So early post-CBS as in the thread title would be like 1983, no?
yes, its a bit confusing. I eliminated the middle qualification of "CBS" and instead had two categories in mind when i posted this: Pre-CBS and post-CBS. I took post-CBS to mean after CBS took over to the present day. This is probably inaccurate, this is what i meant.
Regardless of the terminology, everyone knew what i was getting at. its all splitting hairs at this point.
Perfect description! I had a pristine 66 I sold for big dollars that didn't play, or feel as well as my leave in the car back up SX. Back in the 70's we laughed at some of the stuff coming out of Fender.The QC was questionable at best. Finishes were not nearly as good as some of the stuff from the 60's. There WERE and still ARE some great pieces made back then, but as stated, being old means just that, old, and little else. Two of the basses that I've owned over the years that I sold and regretted almost the moment they were gone, were both made since the year 2000.
As a side note, I've recently played a few different American Standard series Fenders, (both P and J, 4's and 5's) that I would stack up to any Fender I've owned throughout the years. That includes 3 pre CBS and 4 post. I'm still looking for the right AMS P5 to come along. I've played two of those, and they both sounded great and felt very consistent bass to bass.
Hey there you young whipper-snapper, Peaveys were all made in the good old USA back then.
You and others are totally missing the point. While I generally prefer playing older Fenders to newer Fenders, the rise in cost of the older ones is due to much more than playability/sound! Think about it, is a vintage stack knob Jazz Bass worth 20k strictly as a player? Of course not! Is a first issue of Batman worth 100k just to read the story? um NO! What about baseball cards, stamps, civil war relics, etc... The psychology and sociology that go along with collecting include much more than sheer utility of the items collected, and are really beyond the scope of this forum -- obviously judging by some of the responses herein.
Point taken I guess. I don't collect cards, GI Joes, Barbies, or any thing else for that matter. And I sure as hell don't collect tools. (basses) Personally, I never got that whole thing. That is the reason I sold that mint 66. I bought it for $250 and let's just say, I turned a nice profit. Not only did I not regret selling it for a second, but I thought to myself, why would anyone pay that kind of money for a bass that's a dog? Like I said, I don't collect anything, and I'm not criticizing anyone that does. To each his own. The whole point of this was comparing old Fenders to new. IMHO, not only do I feel for the most part they are equal, but in many cases superior. Regardless of your feelings and attachments to your old bass, you can't honestly sit there and tell me that vintage bridges and tuners are better than what's being produced now.
I don't find all that much difference (from a functional standpoint) in the bridges or tuners except that I prefer the way the older ones look. To me gray bottom pickups sound better than any of the current Fender pickups, though. Hey, I don't know why anyone would waste money on a boat, motorcycle, or tattoo, but like you said, to each his/her own
Hey, I don't know why anyone would waste money on a boat, motorcycle, or tattoo, but like you said, to each his/her own
Being on 2-wheels (human or motor powered) is something you either have in your blood or you don't. And I have the scars to prove it
As for boats, I have an excellent sailboat simulator system set up in my apartment. I climb in the shower, turn on the cold water, and tear up $100 bills...
I don't find all that much difference (from a functional standpoint) in the bridges or tuners except that I prefer the way the older ones look. To me gray bottom pickups sound better than any of the current Fender pickups, though. Hey, I don't know why anyone would waste money on a boat, motorcycle, or tattoo, but like you said, to each his/her own
I agree on the tuners and bridge...simple machines that have proven they work for all these years...this we know from basses 30+ years old. I also like grey botoom pups and know the sound of them was a in allot of the bassline in the 70's and 80's. IMO a bass is pretty simple and built right will stand the test of time. Those Fenders from the 60's and 70's that are still around and still playing prove one thing..they made it this far. Dont know about any new basses today. Wait....30 + years form now
I have a 70s Telecaster bass and a 90s 60th aniversary J bass love them both but to be honest the J bass sounds to my ear better, but then the tele has a big humbucker in it so its a different sound but that said the neck is a dream and the sound is ****ing awsome . Love my old tele in great nick bought by myself, neck straight and all orig. but I would'nt pay what people ask for vintage
