Epifani web page cabinet compatability warning.

[pbass78]

Fair enough. Done.

Thanks!

For what it's worth, I used a TF-550B with that 410 and it was unreal, it was just too physically low for me to hear without being too loud.

I've moved up to a UL 610 with WT-800C now and it is just right. I did try the WT with the 410 once and it was just a bit too bassy, I think the TF was a better match there.

Mike

 

[JonathanD]

One thing I think a lot of people are missing is that Epifani is saying "bass specific amps" are a problem and that "audio power amps" are not.

So they give free rain to QSC, crest etc...

 

[Mark Reccord]

I really don't see anything sinister in this. I think that Epifani has genuinely had a lot of users of a particular amp(s) ending up with blown speakers for whatever reason. Perhaps it's a design flaw in the amp or maybe a bad component in a batch or maybe the amps in question accentuate a frequency region that makes some Epifani cabs uncomfortable. That's not unheard of with vented boxes.
I've also seen and taken apart some expensive and well-regarded amps that are extremely poorly engineered....

At any rate, while I'd strongly debate some of the technical information in that bulletin and in their manuals, I really don't feel that their motives were anything other than genuine.

 

[Dr. Riddim]

Not so fast, Doctor. Those of us who are smart Epi owners are going to wait until this whole thing blows over. Then our beloved Epi cabs will return to their original resale values.

M. M.

CURSES! Foiled again... :{

 

[gwx014]

At any rate, while I'd strongly debate some of the technical information in that bulletin and in their manuals, I really don't feel that their motives were anything other than genuine.

+1, that's the way I read the bulletin.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

You can't win with some people. They made a mistake - they have taken the bulletin down and now they have apologised to people enquiring about it. What do you want them to do?

Not make silly mistakes like that in the first place. Seems like if they had waited and actually tested the theory out (as I would have expected such a high level company to do), they could have avoided the whole mess instead of putting up an exaggerated bulletin. I expect more from a company like Bergantino, Epifani, EA, etc. If you're happy with stuff like that, more power to ya.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

The company needed to communicate that people are frying their speakers by overdriving their amps too hard for too long and that type of damage wouldn't be covered by warranty. That's what they tried to do. Their wording wasn't the best, but then again, who's perfect? No one! I see nothing to in what Epifani did to be over critical about.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Here is the response I got regarding the warning.........
_________________________________________________

Hi Joe,
I think the primary consideration would be to run any rig within the safe operating parameters of the amp. If it seems like you need to run the gains or masters past their "comfortable" range you always run the risk of sending damaging wave forms into the drivers. So, the real question is how loud do you need to perform? If you like to play loud and, to accomplish that you need to run the amps in the "red zone", then it's time to consider getting a bigger amp. The best thing to do is to test the Little Mark and F1 and see if they can meet your volume demands. If you can run them comfortably then you should be fine. If you need to really crank either amp then you may run the risk of frying a driver - and not just our drivers but any driver. I'm just curious - which amp seems to put out more power with the knobs setat equal positions? Hope this helps..
Richard Ruse ---

It seems he still doesn't get it. Waveforms don't damage woofers, excess power does.

 

[bongomania]

people are frying their speakers by overdriving their amps too hard for too long

No, I don't think so. I gather that people are frying their speakers by pushing them with too much wattage for too long. The "overdriving their amps too hard" is a fallacy, one of the points that people are getting stuck on.

 

[will33]

Must be a lot of Epi shills here or owners trying to rationalize dropping as much dough as they did on their cabs. I'm laughing at all these comments about how they took it down off their site and how good that was of them and it's all better now and everybody makes mistakes...etc.

People, this company is at the upper end of a niche boutique market, they're supposed to be learned engineers and some of the best in the business and they command a hefty price for their products. Something like this should've never made it to print. They state burnt voice coils as being the problem, heat does that, this means their cabs either can't handle the power they claim they can or some peoples amps put out more than they say they do, which is it?

If I fed you a line of crap on friday and then took it back on monday, was your weekend not filled with crap?

 

[Fuzzbass]

Must be a lot of Epi shills here or owners trying to rationalize dropping as much dough as they did on their cabs. I'm laughing at all these comments about how they took it down off their site and how good that was of them and it's all better now and everybody makes mistakes...etc.

People, this company is at the upper end of a niche boutique market, they're supposed to be learned engineers and some of the best in the business and they command a hefty price for their products. Something like this should've never made it to print. They state burnt voice coils as being the problem, heat does that, this means their cabs either can't handle the power they claim they can or some peoples amps put out more than they say they do, which is it?

If I fed you a line of crap on friday and then took it back on monday, was your weekend not filled with crap?

 

[Adam Wright]

I purchased an Epifani 410 back in 1997 and Nick was very adamant that I only use a high wattage power amp citing that it needed lots of headroom and that under-powering it would blow the speakers. I seem to remember he suggested no less than 1200 watts and even told me a Crown Microtech was his favorite power amp. I've never really read up too much about the whole over-powering/under-powering issue but since that time I've always used higher wattage amps. Interestingly enough, I eventually blew a tweeter and one of the 10s a few years later using high wattage power amps(these were two different instances).

 

[Dr. Riddim]

OK, now we're at the crux of the matter. If heat is the issue I need two additional pieces of information for me to be able to start making sense out of all this.

1.) Does this problem affect all Epifani product lines or just the neo cabs? How about the IP's?

2.) Are the blown drivers hi-freq or low-freq? If both, what's the ratio there?

It doesn't matter to me whether or not Epifani was smart in posting this thing in the first place, nor does it matter how accurate or inaccurate their statements about overdriving cabinets are. What matters to me is whether or not I'm jeopardizing my Epifani cabinet - or any of my cabs for that matter - by using it/them the way I'm using it/them.

It HAS been a lively discussion, though, and a great read.

 

[figuredbass]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeykun http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5594473#post5594473
Here is the response I got regarding the warning.........
_________________________________________________

Hi Joe,
I think the primary consideration would be to run any rig within the safe operating parameters of the amp. If it seems like you need to run the gains or masters past their "comfortable" range you always run the risk of sending damaging wave forms into the drivers. So, the real question is how loud do you need to perform? If you like to play loud and, to accomplish that you need to run the amps in the "red zone", then it's time to consider getting a bigger amp. The best thing to do is to test the Little Mark and F1 and see if they can meet your volume demands. If you can run them comfortably then you should be fine. If you need to really crank either amp then you may run the risk of frying a driver - and not just our drivers but any driver. I'm just curious - which amp seems to put out more power with the knobs setat equal positions? Hope this helps..
Richard Ruse ---

It seems he still doesn't get it. Waveforms don't damage woofers, excess power does.

+1 on both points, Fuzzbass.

 

[Marlat]

Not make silly mistakes like that in the first place. Seems like if they had waited and actually tested the theory out (as I would have expected such a high level company to do), they could have avoided the whole mess instead of putting up an exaggerated bulletin. I expect more from a company like Bergantino, Epifani, EA, etc. If you're happy with stuff like that, more power to ya.

That's nice, but unfortunately its not reality. They did make the mistake and publish the bulletin. They can't "undo" what they did. Sure, they shouldn't have done it in the first place, but they did. You can judge them based on their engineering incompetance now and in the future. However, what I was pointing out was that the post I quoted seemed to be expressing your disatisfaction with the solution, with their removal of the bulletin and apologies to those who inquired about it. Given they made a mistake in publishing it, what do you think is appropriate rectification?

 

[51m0n]

Whatever the reason behind this they have really really fumbled the ball on it haven't they.

Either it was truly well meant advice based upon what they are experiencing or it really was a classic case of FUD to try and boost their own sales (MS anyone).

It actually doesn't matter at all what caused it, the result has been a lot of negative chat, some head scratching and some serious doubting of technical knowledge behind the statement.

All because it was either badly worded or worse, misinformed.

And as we have seen the upshot has been to cause people to doubt the quality of Epi drivers, and technical competence to the point where it is demonstrably losing sales.

At this point they have removed the warning in the hope it will all just blow over, clearly not understanding the nature of the web (nothing blows over on the web - too many caches/forums/blogs/search engines) rather than issue a statement to clear up the doubt the statement has caused.

I bet Jim Bergantino's order book is looking up already.....

Someone needs a lesson in how the web works as much as the technical validity of their statements I think!

 

[USAJO]

Ok to be balanced an even. I deleted a Bergantino comment on another thread but here is what I would like to know. Bergantino stayed out of the NEO market for quite some time. I believe he didn't like them and pretty much wouldn't compromise his cabinets by using them. So has he suddenly found a NEO that is superior to all others on the market or has he finally admitted he needed to jump on the ultra-light band wagon before the world passed him by?
I'm sure the speaker experts who lined up on this thread could open up a cab by Epifani and Bergantino and tell us what the speakers inside are and how they compare. If Bergantino has now found a superior NEO that would be useful info on a bass forum and would be a legitimate selling point.

here is a pre-emptive "what a maroon" if anyone feels this is not a legitimate, fair question to ask.

I think the benefit of a forum is to be able to ask questions and not just strictly cheer leading and helping sales. There have been numerous issues related to various manufacturers that have been scrutinized. That is a good thing. This stuff isn't cheap and the more we know the better.

 

[KJung]

Ok to be balanced an even. I deleted a Bergantino comment on another thread but here is what I would like to know. Bergantino stayed out of the NEO market for quite some time. I believe he didn't like them and pretty much wouldn't compromise his cabinets by using them. So has he suddenly found a NEO that is superior to all others on the market or has he finally admitted he needed to jump on the ultra-light band wagon before the world passed him by?
I'm sure the speaker experts who lined up on this thread could open up a cab by Epifani and Bergantino and tell us what the speakers inside are and how they compare. If Bergantino has now found a superior NEO that would be useful info on a bass forum and would be a legitimate selling point.

here is a pre-emptive "what a maroon" if anyone feels this is not a legitimate, fair question to ask.

I think the benefit of a forum is to be able to ask questions and not just strictly cheer leading and helping sales. There have been numerous issues related to various manufacturers that have been scrutinized. That is a good thing. This stuff isn't cheap and the more we know the better.

Both Bergantino and Epi Neo's use slightly tweaked Eminence Neo's.

I do believe that Jim could not find a production neo that would work in his earlier HT cab designs (which used those hi xmax drivers and large PA type horns). However, his new AE neo cabs (I own one) are voiced very similarly to a 'typical' bass cab (i.e., full range drivers and a standard tweeter), so it does not surprise me that the current very nice Eminence Neo's work well with that type of cab design, similarly to many other manufacturers.

So, IMO, his entry in the Neo market represented the latter scenario you describe above versus the former. It wasn't that Jim found a neo that worked in his original HT design, but rather that he put out a line of Neo cabs which were voiced similarly to other neo offerings (mid voiced, high SPL, etc.). Of course, like every cabinet, his AE line sounds different than the UL Epi line, which sounds different from the Genz or GK Neo line, and I like the AE's a lot!

And again, regarding the Epi blurb on the website, minor, over and done with IMO. It was a mistake, but a small one. IMO, no harm, no foul, no problem since they quickly took it down. If it's still in the manual (i.e., for 'after the sales cheer leading for their amps' or whatever), I have no problem with that at all.

 

[KJung]

I would just like to state for the record that Ken is not privy to any of our internal design or marketing strategy meetings and does not speak for Bergantino Audio. All his opinions and comments relative to these topics are just that, opinions. And like most opinions made on pure speculation, assumptions, etc., they are typically wrong, which is the case here!

And I'll leave it at that!

Regards,

Jim Bergantino

Of course IMO but also strongly IME, since I own all this stuff. And, don't you use Eminence Neo's My comments were based on how totally, completely, and utterly different the AE line of cabs sound from your earlier HT models, versus 'finding a neo that would sound like your earlier ceramics.... you didn't, so I stand by my post!

I actually like the AE's better... wonderful cabs, but far from 'revolutionary' compared to what has been on the market for many years.... just yet another flavor of 'very good' IMO and IME.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I can't speak for Jim, but with the cost of shipping a 20 pound driver from Kentucky to Massachusetts $15, and that of a typical cab from factory to store averaging over $50, switching to neo is a no brainer. You can argue about tone all you want, but the switch en mass to neo by both driver and cab manufacturers was precipitated by $3 a gallon diesel.