• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Equalization

KingRazor

KingRazor

Jun 4, 2010
6,747
415
37
Beaverton, Oregon USA
#1
I've been a sound guy/bassist for the past two years. I've tried to learn as much as I can about EQ, but I still have a lot to learn. So far I've been relying a lot on other people's guidelines and suggestions.

I want to learn everything there is to know about EQ. I want to know how to get exactly the kind of sound I'm looking for with it.

Where can I go to learn more about this stuff?
 
#4
Right, I know the basics. I want to learn more advanced stuff though.

Like, I want to learn how to make a kick drum sound more snappy. I want to learn how to reduce mud, in any instrument. I want to learn how to make vocals sound clear and full but not harsh or piercing.

I know some of it. Mud often exists in the low end, so naturally a cut in the low end will often reduce it. Boosting mids can improve clarity. Too much treble can make things harsh and clangy.

I know plenty, but I want to learn more.
 
#5
Oh that's an easy one.

Kick: Use compression!!!....and add some lows, and some highs only, cut the mids.

Vocals: will depend on the singer, practice/experience makes perfect...I like a slight verb.

That would be my goto setting, and I would mix/micro eq on the fly

As for mud....Subtractive EQ (best advice ever for EQing IMO)

Also, I'm not a big fan of boosting mids...when I can reduce highs and lows instead and raise volume, less chance of feedback and clackiness that way.
 
#7
Um...what do you mean high and lows are different for different instrument?....do you mean the actual frequencies you use?

Are you talking about on the soundboard rail?

or like running everything through individual rack EQs?

On the rail you should have a basic High, Hi-Mid, Lo-Mid and Low

So for a kick, I would have high at about 3 o'clock (sometimes even cranked), all mids at zero, low near 1 o'clock...to start
 
#8
Muzoid said:
Um...what do you mean high and lows are different for different instrument?....do you mean the actual frequencies you use?

Are you talking about on the soundboard rail?

or like running everything through individual rack EQs?

On the rail you should have a basic High, Hi-Mid, Lo-Mid and Low

So for a kick, I would have high at about 3 o'clock (sometimes even cranked), all mids at zero, low near 1 o'clock...to start
Click to expand...

Actually I can set the frequencies wherever I want. The board I use has a built in EQ for each channel. The low mid and high mid controls are parametric.
 
#9
Ok...I see.

You can find lists on the web of frequencies that are great for specific instruments...but they will be subjective, and can change by venue and FOH rig too....so using umbrella terms like High, Low etc is the best we can do.

5 different soundmen can have 5 different views, and yet all have wicked sounding mixes....go figure :)
 
#11

I generally agree with the others that cutting is better than boosting. But I’d put that for the overall mix. When it comes to individual instruments some boost is often required at specific frequencies to help them cut through the mix.

For instance the electric piano often has a mellow sound that can easily get lost in the mix. A boost in the 2-4 kHz range can give it some “edge” and help it cut through. 2 kHz is also a key range for an electric guitar: If it seems lost in the mix, boost a bit. If it sounds overly aggressive or “crunchy,” cut a bit.

KingRazor said:
Right, I know the basics. I want to learn more advanced stuff though.

Like, I want to learn how to make a kick drum sound more snappy. I want to learn how to reduce mud, in any instrument. I want to learn how to make vocals sound clear and full but not harsh or piercing.
Click to expand...
Reducing mud in any instrument is pretty easy if you have access to parametric EQ. Just dial in a cut in the 6-8 dB range, bandwidth at ~1/3-octave, and sweep the frequency knob. When you hit the right frequency, you’ll hear the “mud” drop out and every thing will clear up. At that point, fine-tune the gain and bandwidth. You would use the same method for finding the “sweet” frequencies for piano and guitar to help them cut through the mix that I described in the previous paragraph.

Making voices sound clearer can usually be accomplished by simply nuking everything below ~200-300 Hz. It’s a common mixing error to leave way too much low end in the voices, especially male voices. It only serves to muddy-up the overall mix.

For other instruments, the info below might be helpful.


Key Frequencies for Voices and Various Instruments:
===================
Voices - Fullness at 120Hz; Boominess at 200 – 240 Hz; Speech recognition = 3kHz; Presence at 5 kHz; Sibilance at 6-7 kHz.
Harmonica - Sounds "Fat" at 240 Hz; will add "Bite" at 3 - 5kHz.
Conga - Resonant ring at 200 - 240k Hz; Presence and "Slap" at 5 kHz.
Bass Guitar - Attack or pluck is increased at 700 or 1 kHz; Bottom will be added at 60 or 80 Hz. String noise at 2.5kHz.
Bass Drum - "Slap" at 2.5 kHz; Bottom at 80Hz.
Snare Drum - Fatness at 240 Hz; Crispness at 1 - 2.5 kHz.
Hi-Hat and Cymbals - "Shimmer" at 7.5 – 10 kHz; "Klang" or Gong sound at approx. 200 Hz.
Toms - Attack at 5 kHz; Fullness at 240 Hz.
Floor Toms - Attack at 5 kHz; Fullness at 80 or 120 Hz.
Electric Guitar - Body at 240 Hz; Clarity at 2.5 kHz.
Acoustic Guitar - Body at 240 Hz; Clarity at 2.5 kHz.
Piano - Body at 80 – 120 Hz; Presence at 2.5 – 5 kHz; Crispness at 10 kHz; Honky-Tonk sound at 2.5 kHz as bandwidth is narrowed. Resonance at 40 – 60 Hz.
Horns - Fullness at 120 – 240 Hz; Shrill at 7.5 or 5 kHz.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
Tobias Club

 
#13
WayneP said:

I generally agree with the others that cutting is better than boosting. But I’d put that for the overall mix. When it comes to individual instruments some boost is often required at specific frequencies to help them cut through the mix.

For instance the electric piano often has a mellow sound that can easily get lost in the mix. A boost in the 2-4 kHz range can give it some “edge” and help it cut through. 2 kHz is also a key range for an electric guitar: If it seems lost in the mix, boost a bit. If it sounds overly aggressive or “crunchy,” cut a bit.

Reducing mud in any instrument is pretty easy if you have access to parametric EQ. Just dial in a cut in the 6-8 dB range, bandwidth at ~1/3-octave, and sweep the frequency knob. When you hit the right frequency, you’ll hear the “mud” drop out and every thing will clear up. At that point, fine-tune the gain and bandwidth. You would use the same method for finding the “sweet” frequencies for piano and guitar to help them cut through the mix that I described in the previous paragraph.

Making voices sound clearer can usually be accomplished by simply nuking everything below ~200-300 Hz. It’s a common mixing error to leave way too much low end in the voices, especially male voices. It only serves to muddy-up the overall mix.

For other instruments, the info below might be helpful.


Key Frequencies for Voices and Various Instruments:
===================
Voices - Fullness at 120Hz; Boominess at 200 – 240 Hz; Speech recognition = 3kHz; Presence at 5 kHz; Sibilance at 6-7 kHz.
Harmonica - Sounds "Fat" at 240 Hz; will add "Bite" at 3 - 5kHz.
Conga - Resonant ring at 200 - 240k Hz; Presence and "Slap" at 5 kHz.
Bass Guitar - Attack or pluck is increased at 700 or 1 kHz; Bottom will be added at 60 or 80 Hz. String noise at 2.5kHz.
Bass Drum - "Slap" at 2.5 kHz; Bottom at 80Hz.
Snare Drum - Fatness at 240 Hz; Crispness at 1 - 2.5 kHz.
Hi-Hat and Cymbals - "Shimmer" at 7.5 – 10 kHz; "Klang" or Gong sound at approx. 200 Hz.
Toms - Attack at 5 kHz; Fullness at 240 Hz.
Floor Toms - Attack at 5 kHz; Fullness at 80 or 120 Hz.
Electric Guitar - Body at 240 Hz; Clarity at 2.5 kHz.
Acoustic Guitar - Body at 240 Hz; Clarity at 2.5 kHz.
Piano - Body at 80 – 120 Hz; Presence at 2.5 – 5 kHz; Crispness at 10 kHz; Honky-Tonk sound at 2.5 kHz as bandwidth is narrowed. Resonance at 40 – 60 Hz.
Horns - Fullness at 120 – 240 Hz; Shrill at 7.5 or 5 kHz.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
Tobias Club
Click to expand...
I'm going to be honest, Wayne. That little thing you just posted is exactly what I've been going off of lately. ;)

One of the problems though is that I have to rely on guidelines from people like you, instead of just learning it myself. So one of the things I'm asking is how can I learn this stuff for myself? I want to get to the point where EQ is second nature for me.

Also, I would prefer it if what I knew wasn't limited to what board I'm using. I feel I should understand EQ well enough that I can get by even with a cheap analog board with nothing but a simple 3-band, all the way up to a high end board with a 4-band PEQ.

But, to give you an idea of what I'm working with now:

The board we're using is a Roland M-400 V-Mixer. It has a filter control for every channel. You can set it as a high pass, low pass, band pass or notch filter. You can also set its frequency and bandwidth.

99.9% of the time I use the filter as a high pass with the frequency set somewhere between 20 and 200Hz, depending on the instrument I'm using it on. I set the bandwidth so that it is at its steepest setting, but without boosting any frequencies. (once you turn the Q control clockwise past .80 it starts boosting frequencies above what it is cutting).

The EQ controls include a low shelf, which has a frequency control, so I can set it between 20Hz and 1KHz. It has two parametric mid controls, which can be set anywhere between 20Hz and 20KHz, with adjustable bandwidth. The high control is also shelving like the low control. Up to 20KHz.
 
#14
Unfortunately like I mentioned...it's not just an exact numbers game....

We can't just tell you...set this to this, and this to this, and voila 'perfection'

We can merely give you guidelines, and the only way to get good at it is trial and error.

Your ears are actually the most crucial part of the eq process....if they aren't trained well....you will never achieve your goal.
 
#15
Some advice as a gigging bassist who also has done extensive live and studio tracking and mixing:

- experience is the best teacher of them all. If there are nightclubs and or recording studios in your local area, appeal to them to see if they could use some free help as a intern or assistant. Do this for a few months or more, and pick as many brains as you possibly can.

- context is everything. Some rules are universal, but won't matter for squat if you're dealing with musicians who don't know how to tune and articulate their instrument, or don't know how to make their equipment sound good.

By exposing yourself to many different bands/musicians, PA systems and performance situations, and seeing how sound professionals work their craft on the "problem spots", you'll learn a lot more than by "at home" trial and error or by reading something in a book or online forum.

Just DO IT!
 
#16
Muzoid said:
Unfortunately like I mentioned...it's not just an exact numbers game....

We can't just tell you...set this to this, and this to this, and voila 'perfection'

We can merely give you guidelines, and the only way to get good at it is trial and error.

Your ears are actually the most crucial part of the eq process....if they aren't trained well....you will never achieve your goal.
Click to expand...
I wish I had the luxury of trial and error. I just don't get to mess with the board long enough to experiment much.

I would love to have some isolated tracks to mess with EQ-wise.

I'm not asking "tell me exactly how to EQ everything". I am just looking for guidelines, but specific guidelines. Like what Wayne posted.

I'm also not asking for you guys to tell me exactly what to do, I just want to be pointed in the right direction. Where can I find information about this stuff?

I've seen frequency charts and stuff, but that hasn't taught me much. Simply knowing the fundamental frequencies doesn't do a whole lot of good.

I know that a bass guitar can go as low as 30Hz. But that boosting in the 80Hz range is where you'll get your low end. Anything below that is generally booming mud.

I also know that even though the bass guitar doesn't have fundamentals above 500Hz, that it has harmonics all the way into the KHz range. I also know that boosting in the high mid range (700-1000Hz) can make the bass sound "dirtier" and more aggressive, so I often cut a bit in this range.

It's just little stuff like that. I understand EQing a bass pretty well, but I want to reach that level of understanding with every instrument.

Like, if the "high mid" frequencies on a bass guitar are in the 700-1000Hz range, what's the high mid for an electric guitar? Is it the same or a little higher?

It's stuff like that I want to learn.
 
#17
I hear ya....I basically did the same thing when I started learning (which predates Internet)

When I was being trained...my mentor heard a freq ringing in a club, and said "get rid of that!" so I started shifting eq rails, failing every time...he yells at me "you're fishing!"...that really hit me hard....so I took an eq home...plugged a gtr in, and one-by-one learned what each frequency sounded like...it took weeks..but now I can pinpoint with complete accuracy as to what I want to hear vs. what I don't want to hear.

Learning what each frequency sounds like is important, and you don't need your board to do that....

I would suggest getting a free audio program (like Audacity), importing a solo instrument wave or solo voice....and play with the eq, this will atleast help.

Keep in mind, I am more than willing to help you out in any way I can.
 
#18
There is art, and then there is science. As a practical matter, shaping tones for live or recorded consumption is a bit of both. Sound is a sensory experience subject to a wide variety of tastes.

If you really, REALLY, want to learn more about this, then you must immerse yourself in some of the hands on physical and listening processes - the more the better. Not to be harsh, but otherwise IMO you're just pissing in the wind. No shortcuts here. This is either a serious endeavor on your part or it is just a quaint hobby. (again, all apologies)

The sooner you start - and the more you do it - will determine the point in time where you feel like you've actually accumulated some applicable knowledge. If you want to "hunt and peck" around a schedule that won't allow you much time, then chances are it will take you years to absorb all of the EQ techniques and equipment that allow a skilled user some kind of quality result.
 
#19
JohnMCA72 said:
The "Sound Reinforcement Handbook" (Yamaha) is a good start.

General practical guidelines:

1. Start with no EQ at all.
2. It's better to cut than to boost.
Click to expand...

IMO, it's better to have the average of all your sliders to be 0dB than to have them either all cut or all boost. That's the way to get the EQ you want and have the least collateral damage to your sound.
 
#20

KingRazor said:
It's just little stuff like that. I understand EQing a bass pretty well, but I want to reach that level of understanding with every instrument.
Click to expand...
Like the others have said, a lot of this just comes with experience. For instance:
I've seen frequency charts and stuff, but that hasn't taught me much. Simply knowing the fundamental frequencies doesn't do a whole lot of good.

I know that a bass guitar can go as low as 30Hz. But that boosting in the 80Hz range is where you'll get your low end. Anything below that is generally booming mud.

I also know that even though the bass guitar doesn't have fundamentals above 500Hz, that it has harmonics all the way into the KHz range. I also know that boosting in the high mid range (700-1000Hz) can make the bass sound "dirtier" and more aggressive, so I often cut a bit in this range.
Click to expand...
Well, you learned all that by experience, right? :D

One thing I think that’s helped me is that in addition to being a bass player, I’m also a hi-fi nut and have had a decent-quality stereo since I was young. So I know what good-quality audio sounds like, and I know when it ain’t there.

If you don’t have one, I’d suggest investing in a decent-quality stereo. It doesn’t take much money these days – you can pawn-shop or ebay an old stereo receiver and CD player. You can get a good pair of speakers like the little SVS for under $300.

Muzoid’s suggestion to play with an equalizer is a good one – I did the same thing. Add an old 10-band stereo equalizer to your stereo system, play with the sliders and listen to the change in sound you hear. It translates directly to PA systems: For instance, if the speakers have something of an “edge” that grates on the ears, you’ll know from playing with your home stereo EQ that it’s probably in the 4 kHz range. Or if the bass sounds bloated, you’ll know it’s probably in the 100-150 Hz range.

Also keep in mind: What should be the ultimate goal of a sound reproduction/reinforcement system of any kind, if it were absolutely perfect? I would argue, everything should sound natural, only louder. Of course, that’s an unobtainable goal, but it should at least be the aspiration. For instance, that’s why I advocated in my previous post that voices should be high passed relatively high: No voice has that low-end “bloom” you normally hear from them in a PA system. Neither does an acoustic guitar.

Voices in a PA system are really tricky, a world unto themselves. In addition to the low-end bloom, often the sibilants are either exaggerated or lacking, so listen to the sibilants. Do they sound like what you’d hear from someone standing right in front of you, or are they too hot of too soft? Adjust the highs as needed. Then you have the issue, if you have the highs on the singer’s mics adjusted to where the sibilants sound right, once the band fires up often the sibilants get lost in the mix. Well, the sibilants are critical to the lyrics being understood, so you might need to kick the highs up a bit during the songs so that they cut through. Naturally, that’ll make them hot for any speaking between songs, but that’s something you’ll have to either live with or make EQ changes between songs.

Which brings us to something else: In the church environment, it’s all about the message. Therefore the voices should always be what’s on top and prominent in the mix, NEVER buried.


I know that a bass guitar can go as low as 30Hz. But that boosting in the 80Hz range is where you'll get your low end. Anything below that is generally booming mud.
Click to expand...
True, but pay attention to the lowest notes of the bass. If you don’t “feel” them as well as hear them, a bit of boost in the 40-60 Hz range can help out what the subs might be lacking. Best accomplished with parametric EQ; a broad graphic EQ or mixing-console bass knob will affect way higher than the lowest notes, adding (as you noted) “mud.”

Like, if the "high mid" frequencies on a bass guitar are in the 700-1000Hz range, what's the high mid for an electric guitar? Is it the same or a little higher?
Click to expand...
The top four notes of a guitar are tuned one-octave higher than a 4-string bass. So (allowing for the extra two higher-tuned strings) the “high mid” range would be ~1400-2500+ Hz.

I wish I had the luxury of trial and error. I just don't get to mess with the board long enough to experiment much.

I would love to have some isolated tracks to mess with EQ-wise.
Click to expand...
You might try to borrow or rent a multi-track sound card or A/D converter and see if you can make a recording of your church band with a program like Cubase. You can tap the signal for each channel from the mixing console from the Insert jack: A standard mono ¼” cable inserted to the first click will get you an audio send from that channel. Once you have the multi-track recording, you can play with it to your heart’s content. :)

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
Tobias Club

 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back