ESP MusicCord

[ElMon]

I don't have a loop. I should anyway, they're fun.

Here's an idea:

What if I recorded myself playing onto my computer, then sent the output to my live amp, and had someone switch the cable repeatedly without me seeing it, and then record my assessment of which it was? That could all be recorded on camera as well.

I think to create good reliability, we could use two different bass tracks (two items), and I should have to assess a good number of responses to each. Maybe 10 tries per sample?

That's a good way to test the human element of it for sure. I"m thinking that you could send the signal to the amp, and then record the amp itself again, while switching out the cables. If there's a discernable sonic difference, I'm thinking it will show up this way.

 

[JimmyM]

I don't have a loop. I should anyway, they're fun.

Here's an idea:

What if I recorded myself playing onto my computer, then sent the output to my live amp, and had someone switch the cable repeatedly without me seeing it, and then record my assessment of which it was? That could all be recorded on camera as well.

I think to create good reliability, we could use two different bass tracks (two items), and I should have to assess a good number of responses to each. Maybe 10 tries per sample?

I see nothing at all wrong with that idea. I am not qualified to say if it counts as "good science," but I would accept it as "good science."

 

[Robin Ruscio]

I've always found it interesting that people will readily accept the concept of optical illusions. For example, suppose I were to say to someone, "you're seeing gray at the intersection of those white lines and black boxes, but it's not really there. It's just a trick that you're eyes and brain are playing." That person would probably readily accept that without taking it as a personal criticism. But people tend to get very defensive when the same type of statement is made about what they hear.

I suspect that's because audiophile's and musicians have a large amount of their personal identity invested in their ears. To challenge their ability to discriminate what they are hearing challenges not just their ears, but the constructed cognitive self-schema about who they are, and what their talents and abilities are that make them unique and valuable as human beings.

That's why in therapy we spend a lot of time developing trust
before using more confrontational interventions. It also takes people time to reformulate who they are when it is challenged- they must be ready to develop another structure in place of their previously constructed identity, or have a very flexible self image, which is a great thing we all can be working towards.

That certainly explains my defensiveness about my ears being "wrong"; I have a lot of pride invested in the ability because of the years of experience used to develop them.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

If you tell someone you're going to change something, they're going to "hear" that change, regardless of if you ACTUALLY change anything or no.

That is not the case with every one. Especially me. when asked to listen for a change in tone, that's what I listen for. If I don't hear a change I will not say that I do. I don't say I hear something that I don't.

 

[Robin Ruscio]

That's a good way to test the human element of it for sure. I"m thinking that you could send the signal to the amp, and then record the amp itself again, while switching out the cables. If there's a discernable sonic difference, I'm thinking it will show up this way.

Hmm, I don't know if I could record the amp again through the cab (no mic for that here), but I could take a direct out.

Recording through could also be a separate experiment.

 

[Selta]

It'd be better to DI anyway, Robin. A mic could lose something that the DI shouldn't.

 

[JimmyM]

It'd be better to DI anyway, Robin. A mic could lose something that the DI shouldn't.

Agreed.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

If any MusicCord owners do follow through with more rigorous and quasi-scientific testing, it really would behoove you to use a looping pedal (or equivalent strategy) to take some of the human performance element out of the equation.

Honestly, nobody is going to set up a true scientific test. It costs too much and even if it produces results there are too many ways to discredit almost any study if you want to. I'd rather just buy a NYC Sadowsky and be happy with with my MusicCord. Even if it just acts like a lucky rabbit's foot and subconsciously unlocks something in my brain, the cord sounds better and that belief seems to convey to others that hear the same thing. Whether it's physical characteristics of the cord or subconscious alterations - it works (for me). I'm happy.

I've also learned a lot from this thread. I wasn't trying to troll when I started the thread and had no idea it would go beyond a page or two. I'd like to thank everyone involved. Here is what I've learned - at work I'm like Bob. I know what I'm talking about and I quickly shoot down other opinions. This year in my semi annual review my manager put a goal of "be open to other points of view and alternative solutions." I had no clue what he was talking about, but I think this thread has helped me to understand.

Bob, this is nothing against you and I'm only commenting on your Internet persona, everyone's a little different in person. The way you came across to me is, "I'm right, you're wrong you must admit you're wrong and I'm right." I think that's what I do at work sometimes. There was no way in hell I was going to admit I'm wrong / you're right because I felt like I was backed into a corner with only two choices. So, I have to go with "I'm right", it's human nature.

This week I was in a situation where I know that my view was absolutely the right way. Instead of trying to force my way which would just end in argument and no conclusion. So I set up a scenario where we explored the alternate view *but* we have a backup of going with what I proposed. We tried, it didn't work out and we're ending up with my idea *and* we're doing it faster than we would have by just arguing different views.

Bob - send my your PayPal. I want to buy you lunch / beer whatever. I have learned a big time life lesson and my MusicCord will remind me of it every time I play through it. Hell, I may hook up my work computer with it just as a reminder.

And I still think the MusicCord sounds better.

 

[JimmyM]

That is not the case with every one. Especially me. when asked to listen for a change in tone, that's what I listen for. If I don't hear a change I will not say that I do. I don't say I hear something that I don't.

Agreed, and I would consider you a pretty reliable judge of that. If you were to say it, people should listen and give your words weight. But you did agree with me that the human ear can be tricked, so for that reason, you can't just say, "except mine." Well, you can, but it would be inaccurate. And I'd say that about Bob Clearmountain, George Martin, Rick Rubin, or anyone on earth who makes a great living with their ears.

 

[Robin Ruscio]

Here's an idea:

What if I recorded myself playing onto my computer, then sent the output to my live amp, and had someone switch the cable repeatedly without me seeing it, and then record my assessment of which it was? That could all be recorded on camera as well.

Hmm, just recorded myself onto the computer, then sent the signal via my audio interface to my bass amp. Pretty bad sound quality, lots of noise and hiss and interference.

Need something better then that.

 

[aborgman]

Echinacea doesn't cure the common cold. Nothing does. What it does do is speed the movement of white blood cells. That may aid in healing. This is where the conversation often ends. When the control group gets well on a placebo what's happening? Wouldn't it be great if how belief heals were researched. But, hey there's no money to be made if it can't be bottled and sold to you.

The people who didn't believe echinacea worked before the study showed zero improvement. Didn't matter whether they were given echinacea, placebo, or nothing. All the same results.

The people who believed in echinacea before the study all saw about 25% reduction in length of cold. Didn't matter whether they were given echinacea or a placebo.

Basically - believing it worked made it work.

 

[JimmyM]

Bob, this is nothing against you and I'm only commenting on your Internet persona, everyone's a little different in person. The way you came across to me is, "I'm right, you're wrong you must admit you're wrong and I'm right." I think that's what I do at work sometimes. There was no way in hell I was going to admit I'm wrong / you're right because I felt like I was backed into a corner with only two choices. So, I have to go with "I'm right", it's human nature.

The difference with Bob and Bill and all the other engineer types who have commented is that electricical law is not open to opinion. There may have been a time they were only theories, but rigorous testing by many independent people and companies that result in the same thing happening every single time without exception makes them laws. And until such time as someone invents something that makes them laws no longer, they will remain laws, no matter how much we want to believe they're not. The ESP and Nordost cords have demonstrated no such inventiveness.

It's not like Bob made all this stuff up in order to make himself look better than anyone. Hell, the guy even admits that his QSC power amps most likely don't sound any different than Crown's top of the line power amps. OTOH, the business decisions QSC makes are very much open to opinion.

You're a very smart guy, Rich. Certainly you can see the difference.

 

[JimmyM]

Hmm, just recorded myself onto the computer, then sent the signal via my audio interface to my bass amp. Pretty bad sound quality, lots of noise and hiss and interference.

Need something better then that.

Did you use a DI or mic pre?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

You're a very smart guy, Rich. Certainly you can see the difference.

I'm not saying that he's wrong. But the way it was presented made me shut down to his views. I'm a computer guy, I love ones and zeroes, rights and wrongs, black and white. Learning to paint with grays is expanding my mind greatly.

 

[aborgman]

Again, I'm not saying that your ears aren't really good. I'm just saying that all ears can be tricked, no matter how good they are. I didn't make it up, nor is it a particularly original thought.

Everyone is susceptible to the same psychoacoustic phenomenon.

It's like saying "I have really good eyesight, so optical illusions don't work on me".

Our senses are designed in some ways to be "tricked", because it's faster and more efficient for them to be so.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Agreed, and I would consider you a pretty reliable judge of that. If you were to say it, people should listen and give your words weight. But you did agree with me that the human ear can be tricked, so for that reason, you can't just say, "except mine." Well, you can, but it would be inaccurate. And I'd say that about Bob Clearmountain, George Martin, Rick Rubin, or anyone on earth who makes a great living with their ears.

Well for me Jimmy when I'm asked to listen to something to detect a change in tone, my brain naturally becomes focused for the possibility of tonal change. And if my sences detect change or not I will acknowledge it.

Jimmy some players find it hard to believe that people can hear what they say they hear.


To give you guys an idea of how good my hearing is.

I had to display my hearing once when Dan DeMars of DeMars guitars asked me to take a listen to one of his basses.

A few years ago I was attending a NAMM show and luthier Dan DeMars of DeMars guitars asked me to check out one of his basses. The Long Trail model(it has a piezo system in it). He said that he wanted to know what my thoughts on it were. Well I spent some time playing it and it played great, sounded great(except for a minor issue that was not of his doing. But it was not the builders fault)t and overall a well crafted bass. But I kept noticing the most faint uneveness of the A string tonal and volume output, in open position and up and down along the fingerboard. So I kept playing it and I kept noticing the same issue with the A string. The volume was extremely faint but I could hear the unbalanceness in it's volume output. So I mention this to him and with all due respect to Dan I could feel that he was not interested in hearing that. So I thank him and I leave.



A year later he see's me and now he has a 5 string version with a mag and piezo system. He asks me to check it out so while I'm playing the bass he tells me that he would like to apologize to me. I ask why? and he tells me that the year before when I was telling him about the A string output problem that he thought I was just talking bs. He said that so many bass players had played that bass and I was the only one who pointed out that issue. He just could not believe it. So he said that when he got home he took the bass to his tech and told the tech about what I was telling him and that he wanted the tech to give the bass a good going over and clean up. He says that the tech thought it was odd what I said but later told Dan that upon further investigation he found the most minute piece of dust between the piezo and the A string saddle on the bass. That micro particle was the culprit.


Dan DeMars said that he nor the tech could believe that I was correct in what I heard.

I told Dan that he asked for my thoughts and I told him what I was and was not hearing.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Everyone is susceptible to the same psychoacoustic phenomenon.

It's like saying "I have really good eyesight, so optical illusions don't work on me".

Our senses are designed in some ways to be "tricked", because it's faster and more efficient for them to be so.

You're missing the main point. Every one is not the same.

 

[aborgman]

Honestly, nobody is going to set up a true scientific test. It costs too much

Anyone who has:

1) Audacity (free)
2) A soundcard
3) A passable mic (and it don't need to be great, because it will be common between trials)
4) ABX software (free)

Can do it.

Steps

1) connect bass -> DI -> computer, record track
2) connect soundcard out -> amp in
3) connect mic -> soundcard in
4) Play track recorded track while recording mic input, call recording track A
5) Switch power cables
6) Play track recorded track while recording mic input, call recording track B
7) Compare tracks A and B using PCABX or similar.

It's cheap, and it would only take about 30 minutes to do.

 

[JeffBTZ]

You're missing the main point. Every one is not the same.

But it's much safer and easier to assume that most aren't born with supernatural hearing abilities. I'm not trying to say you didn't hear a difference in the bass, but how can you be 100% sure that your brain isn't tricking you?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Anyone who has:

1) Audacity (free)
2) A soundcard
3) A passable mic (and it don't need to be great, because it will be common between trials)
4) ABX software (free)

Can do it.

Steps

1) connect bass -> DI -> computer, record track
2) connect soundcard out -> amp in
3) connect mic -> soundcard in
4) Play track recorded track while recording mic input, call recording track A
5) Switch power cables
6) Play track recorded track while recording mic input, call recording track B
7) Compare tracks A and B using PCABX or similar.

It's cheap, and it would only take about 30 minutes to do.

I have no recording setup at home so it would take a lot longer than 30 minutes. That's time that I really don't have. Maybe in a few months when things slow down.