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ESP MusicCord

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#542
diechris said:
I think I saw a video online once where a guy powered his lawn mower with a wire hanger...
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wire+hangers.jpg
 
#543
BadJazz said:
Here's a thought:

Let's assume for a moment that these cables are in FACT making a discernible tonal difference to those who claim to here one. What would be a rational (i.e. scientific) explanation be for this? Like, what could a builder do to a power cable that would have any tonal effects whatsoever, positive or negative?

I really am asking.
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There you go, what should be part of the multi blind test is 100ft extension cord. One coiled, and they other straight.

Let see - what gauge? and of course oxygen free.

How come nobody is making vacuum packed cables? Keep them electrons fresh.

Here's one for you, given a 6 ft 24 gauge chord with a constant AC load of say 3 amps, how long do you think it would take an electron entering the cable to exit? Now what if it was DC?
 
#544
IF one was to suppose that all of the wiring from the power plant, to the house, to the wall socket, was all 12 ga Romex or equivalent; and IF the standard-issue IEC cord that one person has is 18 ga, and say 12' long, then I could start to see some potential for say a 6' long 12 ga power cord to perform measurably better than the stock cord. IF it turned out that this was the case, even then the benefit would be exclusively "a bit more power", and nothing whatsoever to do with noise filtering, time-aligning, wave-smoothing, or any of those other garbage claims.

So then the question becomes: are there some amps out there that may be slightly louder or slightly better able to reproduce big low transients if they are fed some small percentage more power (able to draw a bit more current, for example) before the rectifier stage?

That's a question I'd truly love to hear thoughts on from Bob, Mark R, et al.

Of course, this whole premise comes crashing down if there is skinny wire leading up to the wall socket, or if the stock IEC cord is short or of sufficient gauge.
 
#545
If the wire size meets Code, it will have adequate current capacity practically regardless of length. 100 feet of 12 ga Romex wil pass 20 amps as easily as 10 feet--by that I mean the copper will not overheat and create a problem. It's not really a current-carrying issue.

At 20 amps, however, the longer length of wire will experience more voltage drop. It's too early in the morning to look up the numbers, but I'd guess you would see around 5% at that length for a full 20 amp current draw. There's online calculators that will tell us the exact number. (The solution is to go to heavier wire, say 10 ga, if you don't want that 7 volts of voltage drop under full current).

That would have an effect to be sure, if you were testing the amp for full power output with a continuous sine wave. However, under normal music listening levels and normal music content, an amp doesn't draw its full current or all the time. The voltage drop is proportionately less if current draw is lower. So it's not a huge problem...typically.... IMHO.
 
#548
BadJazz said:
Let's assume for a moment that these cables are in FACT making a discernible tonal difference to those who claim to here one. What would be a rational (i.e. scientific) explanation be for this?
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There is none, therein is the crux of the problem. Notice that of all those who think they hear a difference not one can explain why, nor for that matter does a single one understand how amplifiers work, let alone have the ability to design and build an amplifier from scratch.
These silly toys are right up there with the doo-dads that supposedly increase your car's gas mileage and horsepower. Not one has ever been proven to work.
That would have an effect to be sure, if you were testing the amp for full power output with a continuous sine wave.
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Even with a continuous sine wave it would make no difference.
 
#550
Mark Reccord said:
The power and persistence of the placebo effect (or something like it) is actually incredible.

When I worked in the field we tested this(sometimes sneakily) multiple times. One particular occasion stands out because it involved multiple audiophiles. I'm talking bright, articulate people here, who do have great ears. They were invited into our facility to demo a type of "power conditioner " that plugged into an unused outlet on the AC circuit. It was basically a large inductor in parallel with the other things on the circuit and purported to store energy so the line voltage wouldn't sag as much under power. Anyway, to make a long story short, the owner of the company and myself had a pretty intense argument over a design I was working on the night before this demo and I was feeling vindictive so I took the thing apart and disconnected everything inside it except the power neon. The next day these 5 fellows were falling over themselves about the huge difference this "power conditioner" made when in reality it wasn't even connected. I felt a bit bad about duping them but it really drove home a lesson about audio and perception. I never did fess up. :D
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Also see todays report about echinacea as a cold remedy.

Turns out - echinace does nothing to help cure the cold. Those given echinacea, placebo, and nothing all came out about the same.

One group did do better though. The folks who BELIEVED that echinacea worked had reduced length of cold. It worked even when they were given a placebo.
 
#551
Bongo, I didin't mention this before, frankly because I never thought to look, but the cable I used in my AB tests with the ESP was 6' 18 AWG. I noticed no such things you mentioned that could be a possibility.
 
#552
bongomania said:
Of course, this whole premise comes crashing down if there is skinny wire leading up to the wall socket, or if the stock IEC cord is short or of sufficient gauge.
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Hmm, the problem is that copper wire, contained in a cable, is NEC rated to carry 10 amps up to a length of 25 ft, at which point votlage drop calculations should enter the equation. 10 amps at 120 VAC means 1200 watts...so unless you're bumping 1200 watts continuous, or using an IEC cord longer than 25 ft, the standard cord is doing the job.

The actual numbers regarding wattage, voltage drop, and amp-rated power handling are much higher, but I'd have to start calculating coulombs vs. circular mils of wire (which is what the NEC is based off of) in order to get the exact numbers. NEC ratings are padded for fire safety.

On a related note, I've installed lab equipment that cleans power up for laboratory measurement and power supply development in multimedia devices. These power conditioners, which do eliminate power spikes of any kind, ground loops, any harmonic or Rf interference, and other scientifically documentable phenomena cost about $10k and are the size of mini-fridges. Inside are meticulously hand-matched components like capacitor filters, chokes, resistor networks...you get the idea, and it's all controlled by computer. All to put out the perfect 60Hz, 120VAC power (or to rectify, invert, step up, and alter it so that it's 240V 50Hz, in some cases). These units get hardwired into an electrical system, through a fused disconnect, using plain ol' Home-Depot available S-cord, or MC protected THHN cabling.

Looked at from that direction, I wonder that the cable guys try to claim they can do it much smaller and cheaper just by changing the way the cable's put together.
 
#553
3506string said:
I think Nordost beat them to it.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
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I have actually demoed this cable.

bongomania said:
IF one was to suppose that all of the wiring from the power plant, to the house, to the wall socket, was all 12 ga Romex or equivalent; and IF the standard-issue IEC cord that one person has is 18 ga, and say 12' long, then I could start to see some potential for say a 6' long 12 ga power cord to perform measurably better than the stock cord. IF it turned out that this was the case, even then the benefit would be exclusively "a bit more power", and nothing whatsoever to do with noise filtering, time-aligning, wave-smoothing, or any of those other garbage claims.

So then the question becomes: are there some amps out there that may be slightly louder or slightly better able to reproduce big low transients if they are fed some small percentage more power (able to draw a bit more current, for example) before the rectifier stage?

That's a question I'd truly love to hear thoughts on from Bob, Mark R, et al.

Of course, this whole premise comes crashing down if there is skinny wire leading up to the wall socket, or if the stock IEC cord is short or of sufficient gauge.
Click to expand...



JimmyM said:
Bongo, I didin't mention this before, frankly because I never thought to look, but the cable I used in my AB tests with the ESP was 6' 18 AWG. I noticed no such things you mentioned that could be a possibility.
Click to expand...


The difference in the delivered AC voltage would be less than 1% with either 12' 18 AWG cable or a 6' 12 AWG one. Sure you'd get a teeny bit more power out of the one with the heavier shorter cable but not remotely enough to be significant.

aborgman said:
Also see todays report about echinacea as a cold remedy.

Turns out - echinace does nothing to help cure the cold. Those given echinacea, placebo, and nothing all came out about the same.

One group did do better though. The folks who BELIEVED that echinacea worked had reduced length of cold. It worked even when they were given a placebo.
Click to expand...

There is loads of data out there that indicates that the placebo effect is very powerful indeed. I'm sure we've all experienced it at one point or another.

My MusicCord Pro should be here by friday so perhaps I'll get a chance to test it on the weekend.
 
#554
Mark Reccord said:
The difference in the delivered AC voltage would be less than 1% with either 12' 18 AWG cable or a 6' 12 AWG one. Sure you'd get a teeny bit more power out of the one with the heavier shorter cable but not remotely enough to be significant.
Click to expand...

Even then, you don't get more power through a cable unless the device it's plugged into is drawing more power.

EDIT: I just ran the numbers. A 10 amp AC load, through 12' of 18 AWG wire, will experience a voltage drop of ~1.28% over the wire. Is this enough to affect the operation of an amp's power supply? Don't know, I'm an electrician, not an EE, though I'd like to hear one chime in on how significant such a change such as this would have on power supply operation. I suppose it depends on the power supply. It's a high enough percentage to make me curious, though my 3' 16 AWG cable used on my power amp only has .2% drop, and I don't run the power amp anywhere near full power, ever.
 
#556
aborgman said:
Also see todays report about echinacea as a cold remedy.

Turns out - echinace does nothing to help cure the cold. Those given echinacea, placebo, and nothing all came out about the same.

One group did do better though. The folks who BELIEVED that echinacea worked had reduced length of cold. It worked even when they were given a placebo.
Click to expand...

Echinacea doesn't cure the common cold. Nothing does. What it does do is speed the movement of white blood cells. That may aid in healing. This is where the conversation often ends. When the control group gets well on a placebo what's happening? Wouldn't it be great if how belief heals were researched. But, hey there's no money to be made if it can't be bottled and sold to you.
 
#557
All right y'all, did some tests with unwitting subjects. Highly unethical, please don't report me to any boards.

I played my bass for a student with the ESP cord, asking him to listen to tone. Then I told him I was going to change something, but I didn't. Played it again.

He swooned and talked about all kinds of things tonally. Then I stopped and changed to generic cable. Again, he felt it sounded better. Switched once more back to ESP, again, he thought it sounded fine, but not as good as the first time, though he was hearing the ESP again.

Similar experiment with my wife, who's also a conservatory trained pianist.
Pretty much the same thing, she thought she heard changes when there were none, and couldn't really evaluate the difference.

(Good news is my student absorbed his lesson from last week and is now able to write out bebop lines of eight notes that effectively outline the changes and include chromatic approach notes in appropriate places. And walk a bit over fully diminished chords. I showed him the whole-half dim scale for next week and explained to him how dim chords could be inverted at will since they are symmetrical.)

Obviously these results challenge previous assumptions I've had about the tone. Limits on this research: These quick test was very unorganized, there being many variables not controlled for; my playing changing, for example, and i didn't play the same passage. Expertise in tonal evaluation of these subjects is not on par with my own or other bassists who have claimed tonal benefit. I didn't stick to strict script, so bias could have been created by verbal or nonverbal communication. Small sample size. I didn't crunch the numbers as there was no accurate result from either participant.

However, preliminary result indicate that listeners are unable to distinguish any difference between the cables, and believed they were hearing changes when there was none. Further more rigorous research is needed.

I would like to try the ABX thing myself, but I'm on a Mac. (We've established that I'm more artistic than wonk engineer, so you should have inferred that.) Any one know of a program that will do that for Apple?
 
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