Evidence Audio Cables

[Lyle Caldwell]

Marcus,

Yes, I've spent (and spend) a lot of time in studios. My audiologist and my day to day experience tell me I have very good hearing. I can hear the difference in sample rates, DA/AD converters, even absolute polarity on occasion.

I didn't hear any difference with Evidence cables the time I tried one. I'm here begging you to send me one so you can prove me wrong. No one seems willing to do that.

No, humans don't hear better than measuring equipment. No, there is no magic to it. The sense of hearing is relatively unimportant to the human brain, in terms of the resources allocated to it. We have a system based on sight, not on hearing, so the numbers of colors we can perceive are irrelevent to audio.

We even remember audio in mono, unless we specifically try to recall stereophonic information.

As has been proven time and time again, we humans have very faulty audio memory. We don't accurately remember what we heard even a few seconds before. It's not our fault - audio just isn't as crucial a survival sense as vision, so we let it slide over time. I'm not talking about a sequence of notes - that's related to language, which our brain is great at - pitches, patterns, etc. But in terms of full frequency hearing and memory, we don't retain the whole experience with any accuracy.

The issue here is what cables sound like on passive high impedence signals. About the only thing that comes into play assuming non-defective construction and a lack of corrosion is capacitance. Low capacitance cables = more highs. Higher capacitance cables = fewer highs and therefore a perception of more lows. Capacitance can be measured, in very small amounts, long before we even begin to hear a change.

 

[Xanaptabil]

Ludicrous.

So you guys can hear tonal differences between similar grade copper of the same guage? And these differences bother you? *** do you do about differences in wood, clear coat, power supply, etc? How could you ever possibly be content if you have the ears of christ and are that discerning?

 

[jacove]

Let's say that I had my eyes covered, and a guy played the same segment from cd player into my Thunderfunk/Accugroove switching between an Evidence and a George L cable 10 or for that matter 20 times!...My job would be to figure out which cable is being used...would that be enough to prove to you guys that we hear a difference

 

[jacove]

Xanaptabil, I have only done a/b/c with george l and planet waves, don't know what gauge, wire etc that is...I only know that these are the cables I can get in my local store, and the evidence just sounded better to me...I guess it would all be better if I didn't hear the difference, but I'm afraid I do.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Whatever. This is truly pointless. You win...I don't hear a difference. There isn't one. It's all in my head. Cables all sound the same and any difference I think I am hearing is not real, I'm just imagining it. It's all placebos. Gotcha, cool.

Next topic anyone...?

 

[jacove]

You say: "I couldn't care less what people can, or think they can, hear."

If you really don't give a damn what other people can hear, I just find it a bit strange that you have nearly 10.000 posts on this forum where mostly people are sharing and debating experiences. If you are only here to disclaim any personal experiences that cannot be proven scientifically I would say you're wasting your time...and as Marcus say, this is rather pointless, I'm done....

 

[strummer]

Ho ho what an argument...

First to Lyle & Smash: Do you have any data backing up your claim that Monster Cable breaks a lot, and more importantly more often than generic cable? The reason for this question is that i quite recently got myself two lengths of Monster cable because I thought they were reliable!

Second: I don't feel the Monster cable rolls off the treble, but then I haven't measured the cable. I will, when time permits, measure frequency response through all my cables, so that we may or may not see any differences. I'll need to find a way to send a high impedance low level signal, but that is hopefully no problem.

And if anyone might still be interested in abx I think I have an answer for that too. I'll just wire two (or three, or four) outputs in parallell on my PJ mongrel with passive Lundgrens, and record the outputs from four different cables at the same time. Dont know if the cables might interact with each other, but if there are no differences we can argue about the method for a while.

Anyone interested?

 

[Lyle Caldwell]

Anecdotal evidence, but pretty reliable. In every forum I visit, people talk about how many they've had to return.

And looking at how they are constructed, if the solder joint at the plug breaks, you can't resolder it cause it's surrounded by some kind of material.

I don't know of any reason why the cables might be more defective than others but they do seem to be. Plus they don't sound that great (personal experience). Combine all that with the price and I can't see any reason to spend the money.

That said, I quite like the Monster power supply I have in my rack. No "magic" going on, but it works well, is quiet, and has timed power on and power off schedules plus a nice wiring check and voltage display.

I have no agenda re: Monster.

 

[Lyle Caldwell]

And if anyone might still be interested in abx I think I have an answer for that too. I'll just wire two (or three, or four) outputs in parallell on my PJ mongrel with passive Lundgrens, and record the outputs from four different cables at the same time. Dont know if the cables might interact with each other, but if there are no differences we can argue about the method for a while.

Anyone interested?

That won't work because if you use a passive splitter the output of each decreases by about 9dB per connection, plus the impedence load becomes way too much, darkening the already lowered volume.

It's hard to test parallel high impedence low level signals like this.

Maybe playing a recorded signal through a passive transformer equipped DI to convert the signal back to high impedence would work, but I think that would put even more obstacles in the path of an honest evaluation.

 

[strummer]

That won't work because if you use a passive splitter the output of each decreases by about 9dB per connection, plus the impedence load becomes way too much, darkening the already lowered volume.

It's hard to test parallel high impedence low level signals like this.

Maybe playing a recorded signal through a passive transformer equipped DI to convert the signal back to high impedence would work, but I think that would put even more obstacles in the path of an honest evaluation.

Ah, but the only purpose of the evaluation would be to see if there were differences, not necessarily which cable was "the best". I see how your described method might work, and might give it a try.

 

[Lyle Caldwell]

If you want to see what the differences are, just connect the output of a sine wave generator to the cable in question and plug the other end into a scope. Then measure capacitance.

But people don't accept that as valid (even though that's the kind of thing that makes this forum possible).

 

[strummer]

I'm sorry, but i lost you there. Do you mean that the only thing affecting the cable quality is capacitance? That is just too convenient, I think.
I mean, since a lot of people claim to hear differences, I think that it might be interesting to try and find a way to measure those differences instead of writing them off because one mesaurement reads equal.
Dunno, might be frequency related phase shifts, might be small shifts in frequency response, might be something else.
There is, btw, at least one company that has measured differences in speaker wire orientation, probably because they got fed up with people claiming there were none. No, actually the owner of the company (Supra Cables) wanted to show "audiophiles" that there was no such thing as directivity, but there was...

Edit: I don't have any in-depth technical knowledge regarding the finer points of signal transfer, and I do not claim to understand half of what has been said in this thread. I just find it so utterly depressing that there should be no way to measure differences in cables when so many people claim to hear them. And as always, its much easier for those that claim there are no differences, especially if backed up by technical know-how. But I think it'd be nice if the tech guys gave this some thought, instead of just cutting it down.

I find this discussion interesting, especially snice I do feel my George L cable has a thin bottom. And no, it's not that my other cables are rolled off in the hi freq region.

 

[tadawson]

Dunno, might be frequency related phase shifts, might be small shifts in frequency response, might be something else.

That kind of stuff is generally a result of cable capacitance . . . .

- Tim

 

[nashvillebill]

I'm sorry, but i lost you there. Do you mean that the only thing affecting the cable quality is capacitance? That is just too convenient, I think.
I mean, since a lot of people claim to hear differences, I think that it might be interesting to try and find a way to measure those differences instead of writing them off because one mesaurement reads equal.
Dunno, might be frequency related phase shifts, might be small shifts in frequency response, might be something else.
There is, btw, at least one company that has measured differences in speaker wire orientation, probably because they got fed up with people claiming there were none. No, actually the owner of the company (Supra Cables) wanted to show "audiophiles" that there was no such thing as directivity, but there was...

.

At audio frequencies, capacitance is by far the biggest influence. It's easily measurable. Inductance matters for longer cable lengths, it can be measured as well. Resistance is insignificant, along with so-called skin effects, strand jumping, and a bunch of other voodoo science.

As far as the directional cable, they're full of s**t. No such phenomenom exists in plain copper wire. Their "proof" is bogus. Pure and simple, bogus.

I am a professional engineer by the way. I get very angry when I read claims by some of these cable companies....See my views under the Tara Cable thread in Recording Equipment. Basically I am of the opinion:

a) Instrument cables, because of their capacitance, can cause some high-frequency rolloff, but well above my hearing (my ears no longer hear above 14K).

b) Interconnects, if they're not defective, exert no audible influence on the audio signal.

c) Speaker cables: plain old "zip" wire, of sufficient gauge, performs as well if not better than any high-priced cord on the market.

d) Power cables, of sufficient gauge, have ZERO influence on an amp.

As someone said earlier, the principles of energy transfer in wires are well understood. Human ears are lousy. Humans are highly susceptible to the powers of suggestion.

This site has links to tons of cable tests, interconnect tests, and electrical theory on audio signals:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/cables.htm

 

[Lyle Caldwell]

Bill,
Overall, thanks, but I disagree with two of your statements.

First, when it comes to passive high impedence signals from guitar and bass circuits. The pickups will load down if the cable is too long. If you keep high impedence low level signals as short as possible, you'll get a more accurate signal down the line.

Second, this can also affect interconnects if there are a whole lot of interconnects in series.

But if you run the instrument into a good buffer first, subsequent cables won't color the sound appreciably unless the run is just staggeringly long. I keep my cables 15' between my instrument and an Axess BS2 buffer/splitter, and I have no problems downstream from the BS2.

Don't take this as arguing or nitpicking - just clarification for other readers.

 

[nashvillebill]

My logic on the cable length resistance is this: we're talking resistance less than 1 ohm. Now many amps have a resistor immediately after the input jack, prior to the first buffer or gain stage. At least 10k....so how will 1 ohm of resistance in the cable matter? (Granted, the cable is in effect an LCR circuit, but with R of 1 ohm or less, it's effectively an LC circuit...with pretty small values of L and C)

I agree, this isn't a point of contention though

 

[Lyle Caldwell]

Well, there's also the issue of noise being introduced with long high impedence low level unbalanced signals. So it's not just capacitance and loading alone that's a problem.

Overall I think you and I see eye to eye on this.

 

[steveksux]

I'm sorry, but i lost you there. Do you mean that the only thing affecting the cable quality is capacitance? That is just too convenient, I think.

The laws of physics are sometimes convenient. There's only resistance, capacitance, and inductance affecting electrical signals in a wire. Straight wires have essentially zero inductance. Copper has virtually no resistance, not compared to the impedance of the pickups or the input impedance of the amp. The only pertinant remaining quality left is capacitance. There are no other properties to debate whether or not they are significant.


Anyway, Evidence cables are smoke and mirrors. Placebo cables are clearly the best on the market, the only ones to reliably test better than normal cables in all sorts of tests.

Randy

 

[BullCityBass]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

this is a link to a PDF file which compares several highend cables. It is pretty interesting if you are into comparing cables. I have a few highend cables that I really enjoy playing but mostly I go wireless. (the one thing I will say is the monster cables and their marketing, it is 100% snake oil).

The site where this document is located, Lava Cable makes a great cable out of canare and neutrik parts and sells them pretty cheap and they sounds great.

If you ever get a chance to listen to a Two-Rock crystal clear cable, it will change your mind if you think all cables are equal.

Chris

 

[Lyle Caldwell]

Wow, that's one of the biggest pieces of garbage I've ever read. I love how he presents his unempirical subjective impressions of each cable as "frequency response" curves.

Wonder how much they companies paid him for that?

Tip: anyone who says they "burned in" cables for 100 hours, or that cables even need to be/can be "burned in" should be totally ignored from that point forward. The amount of current used in transmitting instrument signals doesn't affect the metal in the wires one iota.

Notice that guy has a degree in statistics, not physics or engineering.