Exploring the deeper subsonic . . .

[juggahnaught]

I say go for it. Just be aware that in many contexts those frequencies won't be reproduced. But it won't hurt anything.

Also be aware of other instruments in that sonic space.

You probably won't get any of those fundamental frequencies unless you use expensive in-ears with four or more drivers and a range of 10hz to 20khz.

 

[lucas303]

While you should be aware of the practical considerations people are talking about, and certainly be aware of the physics involved in producing super low frequencies, don't get discouraged from doing what makes you happy.

 

[BassFalcon]

As I mentioned earlier, SubContraBass is already a thing that exists, so it would be worth looking into how those guys do what they do as far as amplification. Two notable practitioners are Yves Carbonne and Jauqo-iiix. I know jauqo uses regular old Ashdown amps, not sure about Yves. Both are readily available on social media and both are friendly and very willing to share info and help you get off the ground.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

The venue may not be happy with you rattling plates and glasses, bottles falling off the shelf, windows cracking and such.

 

[Bassamatic]

The natural roll-of of our ears gets steeper down there, so you would need to push a huge amount of air to make it perceptible with matching huge amounts of power. For the movie "Earthquake" Cerwin-Vega, arguably the masters of the low end used stacks of special 18" subwoofers faced into the corners of the theaters to make the walls into giant horns, each with its own 1000-2000 Watt amp to get the required amount of LF.

On the other hand, you might think about the mechanical "bass shakers" that are designed to shake the floor for movie fans. Maybe you could place say, 4 of these on your stage to vibrate the floor while you are playing, and that might transfer to the audience. You would still need an amp that goes subsonic with some efficiency, and the crossover to do it.

For example -
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Wasnex]

You have some misconceptions about which frequency range causes the strongest tactile sensation: Invalid Link Removed

In order to make the frequency range you are talking about audible for the audience, it will need to be super loud. Google and read about the Fletcher Munson curve. The first problem is you will require a very large and expensive subwoofer system to pull this off. Unfortunately most high end pro sound systems are really not designed to reproduce much below about 35hz or so, so we are talking about esoteric gear.

I used to try and go for hyped sub bass, but without the sub octaver. I was running an SVT into an 810 and biamping it with a Fender Twin Reverb loaded with JBL E120s for the mids and highs. I had a parametric EQ. I centered two low bands on 40hz, and then added about 18dB worth of boost. The Q of each band was different, one was narrow bandwidth, and the other was medium.

The sound up close to the amp was intoxicating. Unfortunately what sounds great up close does not necessarily sound great in the distance. Lows tend to travel further and also they tend to build up into a reverberant field. The result is your sound tends to become darker and more diffuse as it travels away from your amp.

I would encourage you to run some experiments if you can. It will be fun and you stand to learn some important information.

Be careful, as running ported subs below their bandpass tends to cause damage. Below the port tuning frequency (Fb), output drops off at about 24dB per octave and cone excursion increases drastically. Ensuring HPF is in place to roll off power below the subs Fb is really a good idea.


I think the most likely outcome is you will find that you can create the desired effect and also a really great tone up close to your rig. In the distance, there will be little to no effect and the tone will come across as loose, unfocused, incoherent.

 

[logdrum]

You have some misconceptions about which frequency range causes the strongest tactile sensation: Invalid Link Removed

In order to make the frequency range you are talking about audible for the audience, it will need to be super loud. Google and read about the Fletcher Munson curve. The first problem is you will require a very large and expensive subwoofer system to pull this off. Unfortunately most high end pro sound systems are really not designed to reproduce much below about 35hz or so, so we are talking about esoteric gear.

I used to try and go for hyped sub bass, but without the sub octaver. I was running an SVT into an 810 and biamping it with a Fender Twin Reverb loaded with JBL E120s for the mids and highs. I had a parametric EQ. I centered two low bands on 40hz, and then added about 18dB worth of boost. The Q of each band was different, one was narrow bandwidth, and the other was medium.

The sound up close to the amp was intoxicating. Unfortunately what sounds great up close does not necessarily sound great in the distance. Lows tend to travel further and also they tend to build up into a reverberant field. The result is your sound tends to become darker and more diffuse as it travels away from your amp.

I would encourage you to run some experiments if you can. It will be fun and you stand to learn some important information.

Be careful, as running ported subs below their bandpass tends to cause damage. Below the port tuning frequency (Fb), output drops off at about 24dB per octave and cone excursion increases drastically. Ensuring HPF is in place to roll off power below the subs Fb is really a good idea.


I think the most likely outcome is you will find that you can create the desired effect and also a really great tone up close to your rig. In the distance, there will be little to no effect and the tone will come across as loose, unfocused, incoherent.

@Wasnex is the Bassepedia of the Bass Clef community. Comprehensive White Paper level of writing on various topics here on TB

 

[AlexanderB]

In a home theatre, it is fairly straightforward to reach bass extended down to DC. This due to the "cabin gain" effect, which also makes car audio rigs super loud when installed in the car, but with moderate loudness if used outside the car, ie prior to installation.

Getting big, loud bass output down to 30 Hz is doable with a big bass rig, ie a 212 from 70 Hz and up, and a vented 218 below. With neo drivers and modern PA amp, weight can be moderate, and sizes smaller today, than in the past. 2kW to the 218, 5-700W to the 212. It will slam every commercial cab I know of.

My Ciare loaded 18" PA subs take 1 kW per woofer down to 30 Hz without even reaching Xmax, in effortless, clean bass.

 

[lucas303]

You have some misconceptions about which frequency range causes the strongest tactile sensation: Invalid Link Removed

In order to make the frequency range you are talking about audible for the audience, it will need to be super loud. Google and read about the Fletcher Munson curve. The first problem is you will require a very large and expensive subwoofer system to pull this off. Unfortunately most high end pro sound systems are really not designed to reproduce much below about 35hz or so, so we are talking about esoteric gear.

I used to try and go for hyped sub bass, but without the sub octaver. I was running an SVT into an 810 and biamping it with a Fender Twin Reverb loaded with JBL E120s for the mids and highs. I had a parametric EQ. I centered two low bands on 40hz, and then added about 18dB worth of boost. The Q of each band was different, one was narrow bandwidth, and the other was medium.

The sound up close to the amp was intoxicating. Unfortunately what sounds great up close does not necessarily sound great in the distance. Lows tend to travel further and also they tend to build up into a reverberant field. The result is your sound tends to become darker and more diffuse as it travels away from your amp.

I would encourage you to run some experiments if you can. It will be fun and you stand to learn some important information.

Be careful, as running ported subs below their bandpass tends to cause damage. Below the port tuning frequency (Fb), output drops off at about 24dB per octave and cone excursion increases drastically. Ensuring HPF is in place to roll off power below the subs Fb is really a good idea.


I think the most likely outcome is you will find that you can create the desired effect and also a really great tone up close to your rig. In the distance, there will be little to no effect and the tone will come across as loose, unfocused, incoherent.

Were you using an Ampeg 810 to try to produce sub bass?

 

[cxcxcx]

Too much effort and expense for too little return. Other than that, go for it!

 

[iiipopes]

As everyone mentioned, it sounds good in theory but very hard to achieve for real. Most bass cabs can't go below 40Hz. You might get a sub and make things work somehow, but in small to medium clubs those frequencies might be problematic. I'm not discouraging you though, and I'd like to hear the results if you try that.

Not only can very few bass cabs go below 40Hz, but most full-range PA cabs are actually designed to cut off @ 50 Hz for all the reasons discussed in this thread, which boils down to economics in both design, manufacturing, and most importantly, the limiting of warranty claims from being overdriven.

 

[JW56789]

Just for grins, here's a Bag End powered sub that'll do just what you want:

Double 18's, onboard 1350w amp, and their current iteration of the Ed Long / Ron Wickersham-designed ELF system, which they call INFRA. 8hz to 95hz, =/-3db frequency response (gee, it's like a subwoofer to put under your subwoofer). I have no idea what that deep a response is good for, but should you be playing it in a coastal environment and whale sightings pick up noticeably, just grin. . . . .

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Wasnex]

Were you using an Ampeg 810 to try to produce sub bass?

Yep. Keep in mind the 810 is rated for 800W and I was pushing it with a 300W head, so worries about over excursion. My intent was originally flat response to the open E string, but I probably hyped it a bit.

The BagEnd ELF and Infra cabs use a pretty similar concept. The cabs are operated below resonance where they roll off by 12dB per octave. Then a dual integrator is used to apply corrective EQ; a 12dB per octave boost. The result is flat response to the system cutoff. The Band End processors apply limiting and a dynamically controlled HPF that they call Concealment. Essentially as the system approaches it's limit the low frequency cutoff is raised to prevent clipping and/or over excursion. The original ELF processor claimed flat response to 8hz, but efficiency is super low by the time you get that low. In order to get loud at 8hz you would need a pretty large array.

The current S18E-R datasheet lists the following Max calculated SPL numbers, and keep in mind this is with half space loading:
10 Hz - 89 dBSPL
20 Hz - 101 dBSPL
40 Hz - 113 dBSPL
80 Hz - 124 dBSPL

With each doubling of cabs, expect +6db. In other words a pair of S18E-Rs would give you 95dBSPL at 10hz, four would give you 101dBSPL, eight would give you 107dBSPL, sixteen would give you 121dBSPL, and thirty-two will give you 129dBSPL.

From what I remember 80hz is the approximate resonance frequency of these cabs, and Sensitivity drops off by ~12dB per octave below that.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I am thinking of using a second channel/amp/cab with my signal going through an octave doubler to play one (or even two) octaves below what my bass puts out. It will transition into the subsonic, cannot be heard but maybe can be felt. I might mix dry and doubled signals or switch on the fly into the doubled sound only for some passages in the music. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks.

Talk to this guy, he's done it before...
Exclusive feature on Chicago bassist Jauqo III-X
He use to be here all the time.

Jauqo: The basics of the Low C# Theory are based off of my concept of a 4-string bass tuned C#, F#, B, E. I worked on the concept a lot back in the mid-’80s. For the record, I had no clue that bassist Bill Dickens already had a bass with an F# string! But he supported the concept then and even to this day, especially when a lot of cats would laugh at the mere mention of a C# string!
Interview with bassist Jauqo III-X

 

[Killing Floor]

Do what you want. Play what brings you joy and write what is in your heart. (That's a metaphor, I understand the meat and sinew and bloody nature of what is actually in a heart but saying "brain" for the source of emotional content is still a challenge for this guy)
If your expression needs very low notes, that's cool. There are plenty people in your hometown playing covers of Hang on Sloopy so if you don't feel that, don't do it. Go for it, as an artist it is not your role to create for the sound engineer or even the audience. If you find your audience they will find you back.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

None taken . . . this might be good evidence of that old saying, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I still might try a pedal or two, but it is next to impossible to find gear to "try out for a while," thus making the cost of experimentation pretty much out of reach for a bottom-feeder like myself. Thanks for the information.

I you have a laptop you can run a DAW and a couple of octave plug-ins and try it. Or just record a line into Audacity, apply a couple of pitch shifts down then play it back.

 

[OptimalOptimus]

 

[DJ Bebop]

I got to play that at NAMM years ago

 

[Quadraphonic]

OP I applaud your inspiration. Very difficult to achieve this in a big room. In the 1970s the Grateful Dead had a concert sound system called the Wall of Sound, have a look at that. Some movie theaters have chair-shakers that give you a jolt when there's sub-bass in the movie soundtrack. Maybe start with a bedroom system using a hi-fi subwoofer.

 

[AlexanderB]

Not only can very few bass cabs go below 40Hz, but most full-range PA cabs are actually designed to cut off @ 50 Hz for all the reasons discussed in this thread, which boils down to economics in both design, manufacturing, and most importantly, the limiting of warranty claims from being overdriven.

No, pro grade PAs easily go flat into mid 30s since 20 years or so. In the last decade, even club rigs from ie JBL (SRX/PRX) work in the same way. Whether the FOH guy or systems engineer will put a HPF at 50 Hz, or run it flat (processed) to 30Hz is a matter of preference and utility, not limited by the system.

Edit: looked at your wording again. By "full range PA cabs", do you mean speakers on sticks? If so, how are they relevant to anything here?