Exploring the deeper subsonic . . .

[drpepper]

Searching for the brown note.

Haha, I had an experience that makes me think that if the brown note is a larger phenomenon than a single note, there's a brown note that's much higher than believed, somewhere in the 36Hz range and has to do with intensity. I was at a "country" zoo that had a male lion. The significance of this being a country zoo was that the animals' cages were simply made of what looked like regular chain-link fencing, and there were no barriers and moats like you might expect in a major city's zoo, just a split-rail fence an arm's length from the chain-link. So, I'm maybe 6 feet from this lion and had the great misfortune to make eye contact with him. From that point, he took a very vocal interest in me. While looking me squarely in the eye, this lion started making this combination grunt/elongated bark sound that can be heard from 5 miles away.

It was the most awesome sound I have ever heard and felt (and it could so be felt), and I can go my entire life without experiencing that again. The sensation in my chest was just incredible and vaguely similar to a club subwoofer feel in a way. Once I got over the shock of the first blast, I started moving away, but he kept going even when I was halfway across the zoo...every few seconds another blast. I think he wanted to see the back of my shorts so he could brag later..."Yeah, got one at 150 yards today!". While I couldn't help thinking that there were animals that could get out of those cages if they wanted to, I thought about what that would be like to hear that sound with no fences at all.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Just DON'T do that...EVERBODY will regret it and that includes you. Notes below 30 HZ lose definition presuming your cab can actually play a 30Hz note. Outside of subwoofers very few can. It will just result a muddy, rumbling mess. And if you feed it to FOH and the sound tech has HPF capability, he'll probably filter out anything below about 40Hz.

Sometimes I wish FOH on gigs I've seen put the HPF above 40Hz as things can already be a muddy mess, especially outdoors.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Haha, I had an experience that makes me think that if the brown note is a larger phenomenon than a single note, there's a brown note that's much higher than believed, somewhere in the 36Hz range and has to do with intensity. I was at a "country" zoo that had a male lion. The significance of this being a country zoo was that the animals' cages were simply made of what looked like regular chain-link fencing, and there were no barriers and moats like you might expect in a major city's zoo, just a split-rail fence an arm's length from the chain-link. So, I'm maybe 6 feet from this lion and had the great misfortune to make eye contact with him. From that point, he took a very vocal interest in me. While looking me squarely in the eye, this lion started making this combination grunt/elongated bark sound that can be heard from 5 miles away.

It was the most awesome sound I have ever heard and felt (and it could so be felt), and I can go my entire life without experiencing that again. The sensation in my chest was just incredible and vaguely similar to a club subwoofer feel in a way. Once I got over the shock of the first blast, I started moving away, but he kept going even when I was halfway across the zoo...every few seconds another blast. I think he wanted to see the back of my shorts so he could brag later..."Yeah, go one at 150 yards today!". While I couldn't help thinking that there were animals that could get out of those cages if they wanted to, I thought about what that would be like to hear that sound with no fences at all.

Was the scene plotter of Jurassic Park there too?

 

[Wasnex]

8Hz, well, make sure you have incredible damping technique so as not to induce beats down that low. And reproduction system for that is unlikely to be a speaker cone, and if it was I bet beats between two strings would rip one apart. Or make thr audience barf, then self destruct.

Supposedly the resonance of the entire human body is around 5hz.

 

[Scott Shaw]

Not sure if someone else covered this but bass that you feel in your chest (chest thump) is much higher than many realize, somewhere in the 60-80hz region. I know this particularly applies to kick drum but should apply to bass guitar as well.

 

[beatmachine pro]

um no,..
you cant develop a 8hz sine wave from a speaker cone
the laws of physics are going to be pretty specific about how low
a sub can work
most songs dont even have the bottom octave on the bass
my point was about playing sub bass
not needing a mechanical device to shake the floor
you dont have to overexagerate the situation

i think i understand whats posible
I do have experience with 3600 watts in 4 bins w scoops and 15" speakers
they might have gone down to 32hz

 

[Wasnex]

um no,..
you cant develop a 8hz sine wave from a speaker cone
the laws of physics are going to be pretty specific about how low
a sub can work

This is not correct. A speaker cone can produce an 8hz sine wave...although I am not aware of any that can do it efficiently. So from a practical standpoint, I agree, but technically the old Bag End ELF subs listed response to 8hz. Current INFRA subs list response to 10hz and the spec sheets include the max SPL they can produce at that frequency.

Also, the lowest frequencies from most subs actually come from the port and internal volume of the cab, which functions as a Hemholtz radiator.

 

[beatmachine pro]

why argue with me im just talking about my experience
i dont know what your assuming the op is trying to do
yes im saying my subs had scoops 3 times.
my bass cab has a port , i dont know how yould get a lower tone
and your talking pure theory
the amount of power that would take is prohibative
not to mention the part about creating a resonent effect that will
destroy a building
which is something people have done
maybe get their gear

 

[Wasnex]

why argue with me im just talking about my experience
i dont know what your assuming the op is trying to do
yes im saying my subs had scoops 3 times.
my bass cab has a port , i dont know how yould get a lower tone
and your talking pure theory
the amount of power that would take is prohibative
not to mention the part about creating a resonent effect that will
destroy a building
which is something people have done
maybe get their gear

More of a correction than an argument.

If you have enough of the Bag End ELF subs they will definitely produce 8hz. As I mentioned previously in post #33, 32 of the S18E-R INFRA subs would give a calculated 129dB at 10hz.

The claimed low end of human hearing is 20hz. I know some can hear lower than 20hz, but I would be very surprised if anyone who actually can hear 8hz. So the point of producing this frequency would be tactile in nature.

AFAIK places that want an effect in this range typically use some sort of tactile transducer to shake a subfloor rather than trying to produce a perceivable effect in free air.

Danley makes subs that go pretty low.

Danley DTS 10 specs and frequency response. -3dB at 15hz, and usable response (-10dB) to 12hz...Keep in mind 7.5hz is an octave lower than 15hz.

Apparently you can build a DTS10 for a relatively reasonable amount of money.


AFAIK, Sub Scoops don't typically play all that low. Also from what I have read they are very prone to blowing drivers if you try to force them to play very much below their low end cutoff.

Here is some info from an old JBL spec sheet.

The spec sheet claims usable response to 30hz. Generally usable response is the point were output is down by 10dB. Looks like it's at -15dB on the following graph.

Claimed usable response to 40hz....looks like this is -15dB again.

 

[beatmachine pro]

ya i was using jbl bass bins , 36hz is a real thing with them
so i had no idea this was a thing, 8 hz
ok with 32 subs lol sure ;...is that 32,000 watts?
wonder what breakthrough made this possible
it should take an incredible amount of power to push air
as was stated before thats why bins have scoops
frequencies that low are litterally pushing air
so you should feel it in your chest
the effect must be similar to a jet going supersonic

 

[Wasnex]

ya i was using jbl bass bins , 36hz is a real thing with them
so i had no idea this was a thing, 8 hz
ok with 32 subs lol sure ;...is that 32,000 watts?
wonder what breakthrough made this possible
it should take an incredible amount of power to push air
as was stated before thats why bins have scoops
frequencies that low are litterally pushing air
so you should feel it in your chest
the effect must be similar to a jet going supersonic

The Bag End S18E is rated for 400W continuous/800W program; so 32 would be 12,800 continuous/25,600W program. I think most people will over power the subs and then use the processor's limiter to keep the power within a safe range, so 32,000 is probably pretty reasonable...you just don't want to use all of it.

AFAIK, sub scoops are best described as a bit of hybrid. They sort of mix the characteristics of direct radiators, folded horns, and ported. They are not generally prized for extended low frequency response, but they do appear to be effective at generating the right frequencies to produce a strong sensation of chest pump.

This article Invalid Link Removed reports chest resonance across a wide range of frequencies. However, it indicates the chest is most active with frequencies in the band from 129hz to 143hz. That's above the range where most people run their subs.

I have sort of a lab system set up in my house. It's a 4-way stereo PA with QSC amps and a KT DN9848E processor. The subs are small cabs loaded with EVM18B, tuned to 51hz. I think the HPF is set at around 46-47hz. The crossover to the low-mid boxes is at 100hz. The subs and low mids are at equal volume at the crossover frequency, and I added a pretty significant boost to the subs at around 50hz to try and get what I perceive as flat response.

Here's the relevant part. If I crank this rig up to the point were I start feeling significant tactile sensation in my chest, and then turn off everything but the subs, the tactile sensation pretty much goes away. However when I turn the low-mid boxes back on all of the tactile sensation returns. Also, it doesn't really make much difference if I mute the subs. This suggest we are more sensitive to frequencies above 100hz than below 100hz. I.E. my experience with this system is consistent with what the article says.

Of course if you really crank up the sub bass you definitely feel it. My point is you don't necessarily need extended low frequency response to feel the sound, but a lot of people do tend to over hype their subs for this reason.

For the record I am not opposed to extended low frequency response as long as it is used appropriately. But it's no longer something I pursue for my stage rig as I prefer to let the PA dominate in this range.

Trust me, I know what extended low frequency response sounds and feels like. I have a pair of TL405s in my basement and they can be tuned to be flat into the high 20hz range. I also mixed many times on Apogee AE12s which are rated +/- 3dB from 30-105hz and have a max SPL of 134dB peak. (The AE12 was my favorite sub)

 

[beatmachine pro]

well i cant record my cab because its ported so a mic wont pick up the low lows but this is what i can get straight out of my head (i dont play the b)

 

[Wasnex]

well i cant record my cab because its ported so a mic wont pick up the low lows but this is what i can get straight out of my head (i dont play the b)

That sound great on my laptop .

 

[drpepper]

https://www.healthandbass.com/post/resonant-frequencies-of-the-body

 

[DJ Bebop]

Not sure I understand the objection, but I don't think that's a point being missed.

The OP's idea involves potentially having a signal below 8Hz, "using a second channel/amp/cab with my signal going through an octave doubler." Without even going into the context that was intended, in general terms, what I'm reading in many of the replies is simply that there are impossible and impractical aspects to the idea. Just dealing with the "cab" and the possibility of that, not practicality, no bass cabinet can do this, no standard subwoofer can do this, servo-driven subwoofers may go down to 16Hz (so can't do it), systems than can do this are not "cabinets" but are built into rooms where they are installed (possible but not a cabinet).

The fact that "you feel the bass" isn't relevant to the question of whether you can use a second channel/amp/cab going through an octave doubler and produce subsonics down to below 8Hz.

This video is discussing a different question, but it hits on some of this in an interesting way...

Rotary Woofer facts

 

[beatmachine pro]

That sound great on my laptop .

lol you couldnty hear one note on your laptop
i wish you could hear it through the bass bin

you should look up tesla destroying a building useing mechanical resonance on one steel beam,..the powerr of the sub-sonnic is not to be underestimated

 

[ardgedee]

Arguably a jackhammer also breaks things through mechanical resonance. It's just that concrete is very brittle so it shatters at the point of transmission rather than dissipate energy through compression.

 

[lucas303]

This thread inspired me to change things around a bit and tune my Dingwall real low. Currently tuned E0, A0, D1, G1, C2. I had a .170 laying around so I'm using that for the E0. I ordered a new set of strings from Payson today though: .170, .130, .100, .80, and .60.

 

[lucas303]

I've heard good things about using a HPF, I'll be grabbing one soon to try at E0-F#0

I've currently got a HPF set up in my HX Effects at 40 Hz, if for no other reason than to protect my cabs.

 

[AlexanderB]

SRX828SP Specs
Frequency Range (-10dB): 29Hz - 150Hz
Frequency Response (- 3dB): 35Hz - 120Hz
Dimensions (H x W x D) 681mm x 1205mm x 574mm (26.79in x 47.42in x 22.57in)
Net Weight (each) 65.9 kg (145 lb)
Price: $2119.00

View attachment 4347454

Yes? The SRX series is a good example of a club rig, where the subs will do fine in greater rigs, too. Has a "flat" (-3dB) frequency of 35Hz.
Easy peasy to put a little boost around 35 Hz, and you get a "true flat" 35Hz. See it all the time. With modern "super woofers", computer controlled speaker processors with Voice Coil feedback, two tier limiter etc, setting the HPF higher than ie mid 30-s is a choise by the FOH or systems engineer (baby sitter), not needed to run the rig safely. Maybe you do it differently in US, but look at the European acts and PA brands, this is common practice.

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