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External pedals with digital modeler

C

Challanger2

Feb 13, 2015
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776
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#1
I have a quick question on best pedal setup practices. My main unit has been an Axe FX 3 and typically I've just been doing everything in the unit. However, I'm now in a Metallica cover band, so of course I'm adding a vintage Morley power fuzz wah for all of the Cliff stuff. I'm trying to decide on the best way to wire things up and I'm struggling a bit. I've got 3 options, but I'm having a hard time picking.

The easiest would just to go bass -> Morley -> Fractal. The downside of this is I can't add any effects (compressor, noise gate, etc) pre wah/fuzz.

The second option is to add the Morley in an effects loop of the fractal. This would let me route anywhere in the chain. Downsides would be adding an DA/AD conversion cycle to get signal through the pedal, and losing any pickup/fuzz interaction that comes with being plugged straight into fuzz.

Third option is I bring a full mini pedalboard to put before the fractal. I currently have a small board with tuner, cali76-tx compressor, b7k ultra v2 and sansamp. I could repurpose this into maybe just run compressor into fuzz/wah, maybe into b7k (distortion low/off, more for subtle tone shaping) into fractal. Maybe pickup a noise gate. Benefits would be ultimate flexibility on pre fuzz/wah signal chain with no level/AD conversion shenanigans. Downside is bringing a whole additional board to each rehearsal/gig, and losing the ability to control of everything inside the axe fx.
 
#2
Do you think you'd need any gates/compression if you went bass-pedals-axe? If it's just for a handful of songs I'm guessing that be more than adequate. Otherwise I'd go with option three.

This is coming from someone who loves the AxeFx 2XL on guitar but hasn't quite warmed up to it for bass, because I have a decent pedalboard preamp setup.
 
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#3
I'm guessing the only songs I would potentially need the compressor pre-fuzz for are the fuzz heavy ones like bell tolls, Orion, etc. Otherwise I think I would be ok going bass -> fuzz -> fractal.

I mainly use the fractal for the killer amp sims, as I base my tone off a driven SVT or 400+. And imo, the fractal modeling sounds miles ahead of the solid state preamps recreations one typically uses on pedal boards. In hindsight the axe fx 3 was probably overkill and I could have done fm3 instead with no issues. My previous typical chain would be something like noise gate -> compressor -> drive/boost (situational, not always on) -> amp/cab -> chorus (very situational). -> compressor (light, just to catch peaks), all inside axe fx.

Maybe the most sensible option is start with the fuzz in a fractal effects loop and see if the latency is an issue? The downside of going with option 3 is that my current pedalboard is only a metro 16, which would not be able to fit the Cali76 transformer model and the fuzz/wah by themselves, before even considering other pedals.
 
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#5
It is an option. It's moreso my wife and I close on a condo tomorrow so my frivolous spending money has gone down a bit lol.

If I got a bigger board I'd probably get one big enough so that I could also put axe fx 12 button controller and expression pedal on it as well. So it'd be a big step up in size. Or maybe go with a smaller board so that I could run independent of the fractal into an amp if needed.

I'm also considering either selling some of my unused gear or even the axe fx 3 to get or downsize to the fm3. The 3 is great but it's a massive pain to lug around. I could see something like a cali76 into Morley into fm3 being a very solid board package. Or maybe cali76 into Morley into FM9.

I'm really not an effect junkie so I don't need a massive board, I pretty much typically will only run various drives/distortion/fuzz and maybe a chorus here or there. Axe fx has been great for experimenting with drives as the mix knob lets you use any guitar drive for bass. I've really been enjoying the horizon precision drive into an SVT lately.
 
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#6
Gotcha, this stuff isn't exactly cheap!

An FM3 with your other pedals would be much more compact and would likely get you very similar if not the same results as the Axe 3.

Another wrinkle to throw in... Have you tried an expression pedal with any wah and fuzz blocks? Maybe that could get you where you need?
 
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#7
The problem with doing it in the axe is that I need to get to gig volumes to dial it in, so apartment/condo living in a major city isn't conducive to that. My band rents hourly rehearsal rooms for practice but we usually spend that time playing. We've talked about maybe doing a tone session one day where we just rent the room for 4-6 hours and work on dialing poopie it, so I could maybe do it in the axe if we get a session like that.

What makes the setup a lot harder is the way the foot pedal of the vintage one works. With the fuzz on it controls fuzz intensity/blend (hard to tell which), and with wah on it does fuzz intensity/blend and wah, and wah only it does wah. So things would have to be setup very precisely in the axe.
 
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#9
Challanger2 said:
Downsides would be adding an DA/AD conversion cycle to get signal through the pedal
Click to expand...
Why is this being viewed negatively? It will be inaudibly different. The amount of latency will be imperceptible, and any sonic differences, of which I doubt there will be any, would be completely nullified by the massive change in tone that comes with running the Morley in your signal chain at all.
 
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#10
silky smoove said:
Why is this being viewed negatively? It will be inaudibly different. The amount of latency will be imperceptible, and any sonic differences, of which I doubt there will be any, would be completely nullified by the massive change in tone that comes with running the Morley in your signal chain at all.
Click to expand...

I think I misread the fractal wiki originally. I thought AD/DA conversion was several milliseconds, but on second read it looks like an AD/DA conversion cycle is like half a millisecond or less, so it's much less significant that I thought.
 
#11
Challanger2 said:
I think I misread the fractal wiki originally. I thought AD/DA conversion was several milliseconds, but on second read it looks like an AD/DA conversion cycle is like half a millisecond or less, so it's much less significant that I thought.
Click to expand...
Even several is a non-issue. Studies have shown that the threshold for human perception as separate sound sources tends to be around 8ms at the onset.
 
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#14
How do these perceptions accumulate for you, or not? Ie, "several" milliseconds for each of:
-into a wireless instrument transmitter (then out)
-into a modeler (then out)
-into analog pedals (then out)
-into a digital mixer (then out)
-into a wireless iem transmitter (then out)

And on that last one, how does that compare to monitoring via speaker cab or wedge, where it takes time for the sound wave to propagate through the air to your ears?

I ask because in some contexts I observe designers and engineers putting a lot of effort / $$ into maintaining digital chains as long as possible and avoiding multiple AD/DA categorically, and in other contexts not so much. But beyond "better monitoring usual equals tighter playing" it's all beyond me…
 
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#16
Challanger2 said:
I have a quick question on best pedal setup practices. My main unit has been an Axe FX 3 and typically I've just been doing everything in the unit. However, I'm now in a Metallica cover band, so of course I'm adding a vintage Morley power fuzz wah for all of the Cliff stuff. I'm trying to decide on the best way to wire things up and I'm struggling a bit. I've got 3 options, but I'm having a hard time picking.

The easiest would just to go bass -> Morley -> Fractal. The downside of this is I can't add any effects (compressor, noise gate, etc) pre wah/fuzz.

The second option is to add the Morley in an effects loop of the fractal. This would let me route anywhere in the chain. Downsides would be adding an DA/AD conversion cycle to get signal through the pedal, and losing any pickup/fuzz interaction that comes with being plugged straight into fuzz.

Third option is I bring a full mini pedalboard to put before the fractal. I currently have a small board with tuner, cali76-tx compressor, b7k ultra v2 and sansamp. I could repurpose this into maybe just run compressor into fuzz/wah, maybe into b7k (distortion low/off, more for subtle tone shaping) into fractal. Maybe pickup a noise gate. Benefits would be ultimate flexibility on pre fuzz/wah signal chain with no level/AD conversion shenanigans. Downside is bringing a whole additional board to each rehearsal/gig, and losing the ability to control of everything inside the axe fx.
Click to expand...
Option 2 is mutually exclusive of the other two options - you can't have bass -> Morley Fuzz/Wah AND a compressor between the bass and Morley regardless of Axe FX usage.

So if you want option 2 there is only one way to get it.

Of the other 2 options it's your decision on whether you want to bring another board. For live use I wouldn't sweat another set of D/A and A/D conversions.
 
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#17
silky smoove said:
So if you stand more than 5' from an amp or monitor the attack starts to feel off?
Click to expand...

I honestly couldn't tell you, but that does sound unlikely. I've played ampless for about 12 years now. I'm speaking based on reported latency numbers in my DAW. I can play along with it up to about 10ms without getting thrown off by the latency. But I notice it around 5ms on my DAW's reported numbers.
 
#18
semiprohooker said:
I'm speaking based on reported latency numbers in my DAW.
Click to expand...
Your DAW can only calculate its internal latency and does not include roundtrip latency values for the AD converters before it, the system hosting it and the DA converters after it. You need to do a physical loopback test by patching an output to an input and pinging the system through it's monitoring utility to calculate the number of samples the input is offset from the output to truly calculate this. If you're "noticing it" at 5ms and "getting thrown off" at 10ms I'm guessing you're actually experiencing greater levels of latency than what your DAW is reporting. Anyone that's ever used a 10' long instrument cable in front of an amplifier has experienced 10ms of latency and I'd be shocked if that actually threw anyone off of the groove.
 
#19
silky smoove said:
Your DAW can only calculate its internal latency and does not include roundtrip latency values for the AD converters before it, the system hosting it and the DA converters after it. You need to do a physical loopback test by patching an output to an input and pinging the system through it's monitoring utility to calculate the number of samples the input is offset from the output to truly calculate this. If you're "noticing it" at 5ms and "getting thrown off" at 10ms I'm guessing you're actually experiencing greater levels of latency than what your DAW is reporting. Anyone that's ever used a 10' long instrument cable in front of an amplifier has experienced 10ms of latency and I'd be shocked if that actually threw anyone off of the groove.
Click to expand...

So, if cables are introducing latency into signal path then I need to account for my 21ft cable to my tuner, my 21ft cable to the DI, the 15ft XLR cable from the DI, and the 12 ft headphone cable in order to express my own personal experiences. Add all that to get whatever value they're giving you, then add the round-trip score displayed in my DAW or audio software (MBox or RME) of 10-12 that throws me off to generate whatever total you're comfortable with accepting as the value that throws me off. Let me know what you get so I can save it for future reference.

For now, I'll continue to adjust my buffer to keep the values I see on screen below the threshold I know, from experience, throws off tracking.
 

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