fdecks HPF, Part II

[Sugar McGuinn]

I am certain you realize that the answer is neither of the choices you insist upon. IME, "It all depends."

Tone on stage is not tone in the house.
The acoustics of the venue and stage, the PA situation, and your rig/instruments interaction with the aforesaid will all have their say.
I have found that the fDeck HPF can make a big difference in tightening the low end in SOME venues. It is not so easy to access how effective it is unless you can get out from the stage during a performance—something I rarely have the luxury of doing.

It is worth repeating: tone on stage is not tone in the house. Just because you don't hear boominess on stage doesn't mean it is NOT there in the house.

"Tone on stage is not tone in the house." Of course not, I wasn't suggesting it was. If that we're the case we bass players would have 70% less things to complain about here on TB, and far less things to think we "need" to buy... Am I right??!! Can I get amen!??!

This is somewhat irrelevant to me anyway, as kzr750r1 said, you have to leave that one up to the sound man. I'm trying to improve "my" "personal" "on-stage" sound for my own enjoyment during the gig. If I started worrying about what the sound man was doing, I may as well stay home. ;-)

 

[Sugar McGuinn]

I should also mention that I will have my answer to this dilemma, hopefully tonight. My longtime friend, and fellow TB'er Nick saw my post and graciously offered to lend my his FDECK Series III for a gig that I have in about 2-hours.

So YAAAYYY!!!! and Thanks you Nick!

I'll report back my thoughts and findings tomorrow.

 

[Sugar McGuinn]

OK, just got home from my gig.

Verdict. Totally works, and worth every penny (that I'm about to pay).

Yeah, no one in the band said they noticed, but in actual fact they "did" notice. The last time we played at this particular venue everyone said the stage sound was super boomy and loud. This time, tight and clean. They attributed it to the soundman, of course. But I could totally hear what was :not" happening. It's true, if you didn't know what you were listening for, you would never notice, but it really is a HUGE difference.

I did roll the Series III's 2nd Filter to about 60Hz-80Hz (somewhere in that area). I could really hear it hacking away at the low-end rumble, and it was brilliant!

Thanks Nick, for your generosity in loaning me your FDECK. And thank you Francis, you have a new order coming your way. ;-)

Sugar.

 

[staccatogrowl]

. . fDeck HPF can make a big difference in tightening the low end in SOME venues . .

Device is certainly valuable for these venues. In all venues, it is priceless in terms of removing low signals from speakers that could cause great harm at high dbs.

 

[FerruleCat]

I'm sure this has been explained upthread, but as I understand, frequencies below a cabinet's tuning point are uncontrolled and contribute very readily to cone excursion. As power increases, it becomes easy to exceed the cone's mechanical limits, and you can slam the voice coil into the back of the magnet, ruining the driver. Adding insult to injury, it wasn't even the musical part of the note that killed your speaker; it was the rumbly, boomy part.

A note's fundamental frequency accounts for only a portion of what we perceive as that note, with higher-order harmonics contributing much if not most of the total energy. This is why we can cut some of the lowest frequencies and still perceive a low B as a low B. (Incidentally, this also is at the heart of Peavey's MaxBass DSP technology, which enriches certain frequencies to create the illusion that the deeper frequencies must also be present.)

So by trimming the lowest frequencies, we buy some protection for our speakers while trading away only a small component of the note, and in practical application, the music can often sound subjectively better as well - more "focused."

If you get the chance, listen to the decay of a closely-mic'd ride cymbal hit. You'll be surprised by the low-frequency junk that does nothing but muddy the mix. By high-passing that signal, you keep the spectrum clean for instruments that can make musical use of those frequencies, and/or simply keep things tidy for the listener.

Then we add the fact that a cabinet interacts with the room in various ways, and we have all the more use for pass filtering.

(Please correct any misunderstandings on my part. I've been learning this stuff over the past three months.)

 

[scotch]

^The above is all true, but lets not forget that most every bass amplifier designed in the last few decades already has high pass filtering integrated. In some amps, (Genz Benz Shuttles, for instance) they even filtered what many consider too much!
Still, there is a time and place for an outboard hpf. I own an fDeck, love it, and use it occasionally when needed.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

I am certain you realize that the answer is neither of the choices you insist upon. IME, "It all depends."

Tone on stage is not tone in the house.
The acoustics of the venue and stage, the PA situation, and your rig/instruments interaction with the aforesaid will all have their say.
I have found that the fDeck HPF can make a big difference in tightening the low end in SOME venues. It is not so easy to access how effective it is unless you can get out from the stage during a performance—something I rarely have the luxury of doing.

It is worth repeating: tone on stage is not tone in the house. Just because you don't hear boominess on stage doesn't mean it is NOT there in the house.

The real fans are right up front where they can hear the backine. Who cares about the plebians futher back....

 

[Jim Carr]

^The above is all true, but lets not forget that most every bass amplifier designed in the last few decades already has high pass filtering integrated. In some amps, (Genz Benz Shuttles, for instance) they even filtered what many consider too much!
Still, there is a time and place for an outboard hpf. I own an fDeck, love it, and use it occasionally when needed.

Glad I didn't have to explain that again.

 

[Dubista]

Would running a Density Hulk (DOD Meatbox clone) with a HPF like the Fdeck be counter productive considering the DH is about sub lows and the the Fdeck is, well, a HPF?

 

[jnewmark]

Just picked up one of these, even though I may never need it as I use two of the aforementioned Shuttles. It's a Series III. I'm assuming everyone runs the volume all the way up when in use ? Is there a time when you would not do this ? Thanks.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

For all practical purposes, volume wide open all the time.

 

[mbelue]

Would running a Density Hulk (DOD Meatbox clone) with a HPF like the Fdeck be counter productive considering the DH is about sub lows and the the Fdeck is, well, a HPF?

You'd still get allot of harmonic shift lower, the fdeck would chop off the stuff at the bottom. The interplay between the two might negate the biggest benefit of either but realistically, without real PA subs you won't be using that stuff at the bottom in a regular bass cab.
Might sound cool, might not the fdeck is a cheap test. The Mantic Density, not so cheap.

 

[StuartV]

I got my HPF 3 last week. I finally got to try it out a little bit yesterday when I was testing out the upgrades I did to my B15R. What I found is that with the HPF set to 35, I am not sure I can even tell that it's there. I did not try switching back and forth between having it in and out. I kinda wish the HPF had a Bypass switch on it, for that purpose. But, when I turned it up to 140, I could definitely tell it was there, however it just made my tone sound thin. It's not like the low notes just completely disappeared.

After playing with it, I realized that there is probably one benefit of it that I had not thought about before, and that would not ever show itself when trying it out while playing alone: I am pretty sure that most any bass pickup is sufficiently microphonic that it will pick up SOME amount of "noise" when playing live on a loud stage - e.g. when standing close to a drummer who is hitting hard and, especially, kicking the bass drum hard. And even more so when the bass drum is mic'ed. All it takes it rapping your knuckles on the body of your bass to hear this effect.

So, the benefit I just realized is that the HPF should filter out a lot of very low frequency rumbling that comes from stage "noise" and would potentially get picked up by the bass's pickup.

Or maybe not. Again, it would be nice to have a Bypass switch so I could easily experiment on stage to help discern exactly what the HPF is doing.

 

[Feral Feline]

The schematic is freely available so you have a few options:
1) Get your Fdeck HPF Pre rehoused with a bypass switch added, ex: in a stomp box with a footswitch bypass;
2) Have an HPF made from the schematic with the bypass switch;
3) Have your Fdeck HPF Pre modded to include a bypass switch.

PS: another option... borrow a line-selector device to test with and without Fdeck.

 

[BurningSkies]

I got my HPF 3 last week. I finally got to try it out a little bit yesterday when I was testing out the upgrades I did to my B15R. What I found is that with the HPF set to 35, I am not sure I can even tell that it's there. I did not try switching back and forth between having it in and out. I kinda wish the HPF had a Bypass switch on it, for that purpose. But, when I turned it up to 140, I could definitely tell it was there, however it just made my tone sound thin. It's not like the low notes just completely disappeared.

After playing with it, I realized that there is probably one benefit of it that I had not thought about before, and that would not ever show itself when trying it out while playing alone: I am pretty sure that most any bass pickup is sufficiently microphonic that it will pick up SOME amount of "noise" when playing live on a loud stage - e.g. when standing close to a drummer who is hitting hard and, especially, kicking the bass drum hard. And even more so when the bass drum is mic'ed. All it takes it rapping your knuckles on the body of your bass to hear this effect.

So, the benefit I just realized is that the HPF should filter out a lot of very low frequency rumbling that comes from stage "noise" and would potentially get picked up by the bass's pickup.

Or maybe not. Again, it would be nice to have a Bypass switch so I could easily experiment on stage to help discern exactly what the HPF is doing.

It not being 'obviously' there is a good thing. You don't want it to be an 'effect.' You may notice it visually (aka looking at the speaker excursion) either when you're playing loudly or if you 'thump' on the muted strings which generates those deep lows. You may not notice it until you're in a band setting and it still won't be obvious, except for the fact that the 'room' will feel better...like you're tuning the room so you don't get that unwanted wash in the infrasonic or subsonic ranges.

Although at 100w or less, you may not be making enough volume that you're creating room problems.

 

[StuartV]

It not being 'obviously' there is a good thing. You don't want it to be an 'effect.' You may notice it visually (aka looking at the speaker excursion) either when you're playing loudly or if you 'thump' on the muted strings which generates those deep lows. You may not notice it until you're in a band setting and it still won't be obvious, except for the fact that the 'room' will feel better...like you're tuning the room so you don't get that unwanted wash in the infrasonic or subsonic ranges.

Although at 100w or less, you may not be making enough volume that you're creating room problems.

Right. I mentioned the part about not even being sure it was there because I agree that that's a good thing.

My B15R is 100W and it gets MORE than loud enough for SOME of the places I've been playing. But, even for occasions where I don't need it to "tune the room", I wanted the HPF to maximize use of those 100W by not using any of them to amplify infrasonic sounds.

 

[azwhofan]

I got my HPF 3 last week. I finally got to try it out a little bit yesterday when I was testing out the upgrades I did to my B15R. What I found is that with the HPF set to 35, I am not sure I can even tell that it's there. I did not try switching back and forth between having it in and out. I kinda wish the HPF had a Bypass switch on it, for that purpose. But, when I turned it up to 140, I could definitely tell it was there, however it just made my tone sound thin. It's not like the low notes just completely disappeared.

After playing with it, I realized that there is probably one benefit of it that I had not thought about before, and that would not ever show itself when trying it out while playing alone: I am pretty sure that most any bass pickup is sufficiently microphonic that it will pick up SOME amount of "noise" when playing live on a loud stage - e.g. when standing close to a drummer who is hitting hard and, especially, kicking the bass drum hard. And even more so when the bass drum is mic'ed. All it takes it rapping your knuckles on the body of your bass to hear this effect.

So, the benefit I just realized is that the HPF should filter out a lot of very low frequency rumbling that comes from stage "noise" and would potentially get picked up by the bass's pickup.

Or maybe not. Again, it would be nice to have a Bypass switch so I could easily experiment on stage to help discern exactly what the HPF is doing.

For my the Fdeck is all about taming speaker excursion. I run my Super Bassman 300 at pretty high volumes through the NEO 610. Trial and error testing showed my that the excursion gets tamed best (for me) at about the 3 o'clock setting on the dial, give or take a smidge. I don't have it dialed up to a frequency where it affects the tone. I did notice tone getting affected using this rig closer to the 1 o'clock position ... well, maybe closer to the 2 o'clock position IIRC

 

[T_Bone_TL]

The schematic is freely available so you have a few options:

Well, unless it's hiding somewhere I don't see it (and I fully respect Francis' right to keep it to himself for the sake of his business) strictly speaking the version 1 and 2 schematics are freely available, and version 3 is not. I would not want a switch incorporated - additional point of failure and additional expense, for something "that's not an effect so there's little point."

 

[StuartV]

Well, now that you mention it.... what happens if the battery gets low or dies while you're using the HPF 3?

I have had some issues with my Sansamp BDDI before where the battery got very low and I started having occasional loud squeaks or something. With that one, I was glad to have the Bypass switch on it, so I could just turn it off and keep playing.

 

[ArtechnikA]

Well, now that you mention it.... what happens if the battery gets low or dies while you're using the HPF 3?

I plan to run mine from the pedalboard power supply and not worry about the battery.
But as circuits go, I expect it draws _far_ less current than even an onboard multi-band pre (especially any with boost, which the fDeck does not...)
I just ordered mine too, and it's "in Transit."
In my case I'm using it mostly for its high-impedance buffer for use with a piezo EUB, but I like the HPF concept as well.