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Fearful cabs: Simple answers-Amps thread
- Thread starter whocaresnotme
- Start date
This is perhaps a bigger debate than tube vs transistor.
Some techs I talk to say there is no difference between a poly film and a tantalum cap. I can hear the difference and I am old and deaf. So yes different caps of the same value will sound different.
IMHO if you substitute another cap of the exact same value (within tolerance) and same contruction (metalized poly film) by a good manufacturer like Panasonic, then it should be fine. Be sure the ESR, farads, volts, and thermal rating are all the same.
TO be fair I searched Digikey and couldnt find any panasonic poly films with those values. You could possibly get away with a 35 instead of a 33uf. or a 10 instead of a 12uf cap. But then the frequency shifts.
The pricey part there are the inductors. Those always cost, and all they are is bundled up wire!
Thanks for the capacitor advice!
I've got an assortment of motor run caps on hand, but I'll go ahead and order the audiophile grade caps, they're not that much $$.
I have a Q about resistors. I understand why they're using several in parallel to obtain the correct resistance, however some of the resistors can be found in the correct rating w/o using several in parallel. I see that higher wattage resistors are recommended for "ultimate audio quality and power handling". I don't have a real beefy amp right now, but you never know.
Are there any issues with using one 20ohm/50watt resistor vs the recommended 2x 40ohm 50 watt?
Finally, the least expensive solution recommended is to use 3x 51ohm 25watt resistors, however this equals 17ohms, not 20 as recommended. Will this have any effect on the tone? Why not use a single 17ohm resistor? Etc.
I've got an assortment of motor run caps on hand, but I'll go ahead and order the audiophile grade caps, they're not that much $$.
I have a Q about resistors. I understand why they're using several in parallel to obtain the correct resistance, however some of the resistors can be found in the correct rating w/o using several in parallel. I see that higher wattage resistors are recommended for "ultimate audio quality and power handling". I don't have a real beefy amp right now, but you never know.
Are there any issues with using one 20ohm/50watt resistor vs the recommended 2x 40ohm 50 watt?
Finally, the least expensive solution recommended is to use 3x 51ohm 25watt resistors, however this equals 17ohms, not 20 as recommended. Will this have any effect on the tone? Why not use a single 17ohm resistor? Etc.
I can speak to the general idea of the 15/6 and 12/6 and 1515/6/6 and 212/6 design, since I've spent quite a bit of time with a bunch of them.
First, these aren't 'better' than your current 2 x 210 rig, but they are 'different'. Different can be good or bad depending on your tone goals. The idea of the 6" driver and high xmax woofers has been around for a long time, in some of LDS cab designs through the years, Accugroove, Acme, EA VL cabs, etc. It has gotten a bit more exciting lately since the components have improved so much, allowing for lighter weight and higher performance with that wonderful Eminence Neo 15 and 12 LF line of speakers, and the very high quality and high output 6/5" mid drivers from various companies that are now available.
The advantages of using a 6" mid driver with a crossover set somewhere in the upper midrange (depending on the woofer, etc.) are:
1) You can use a woofer with higher xmax and more low end extension than a one way or typical 2 way cab with a tweeter, since you don't have to worry about the woofer generating the upper mids. There is no free lunch, if you want a woofer to sound deeper and go lower, you are going to give up response at the top end.
2) The higher midrange coming out of a larger driver will be more directional (beaming) than coming out of a smaller cone, so you will get a bit better near field off-axis performance (i.e., the guys at the far end of the stage, and audience members close but off center on the stage) will here more even response from the cab above 800hz or so.
3) The upper mid response is a bit different coming from a high quality crossed over mid driver versus coming from the top end of a full range woofer... smoother and cleaner.
So, if you like big, open low end, and a pure, smooth, distortion free midrange, these cabs sound beautiful. If you need more upper treble, a tweeter can be added to extend the top end of these cabs from 5K or so up to the upper treble like a typical two way cab with a tweeter.
If you like burpy, grindy, punch, IMO these cabs would not be my choice. They are fat, warm, smooth, even, and 'polite' sounding inherently.
Hope that helps, and of course, IMO and IME.
I will have a video up of a 15/6 built by Low Down Sound on my youtube channel (link in my signature) tomorrow. It will not be a fearFull design exactly, but all the variations of the 15/6's I've played sound very similar, so it should give you an idea of the general tone these cabs are capable of with relatively 'flat, neutral' amplification applied.
One thing to note is that, with the proper eq and/or plucking style you can make the 6nd410 specifically sound quite impolite. Without the horn you can't simulate a horn very well but you can get similar tones to a woofer rolling off naturally.
They take eq and effects so well that they are quite flexible.
They take eq and effects so well that they are quite flexible.
I have not been able to achieve this. There is something inherently different about the response of that 6" mid driver versus the top end of a 10" or 12" speaker. I agree that it will 'reproduce' most anything you put into it, but as far as that bit of break-up and 'pleasant' (IMO) upper mid/lower treble distortion/grind in the upper mids that give some cabs their 'character', this does not exist with this design IME.
Hence.. the difference! To some, that is a wonderful thing (pure, even, smooth, clean upper mids and a nice paper cone sounding lower treble). To others like me, it is the primary reason I don't own one. Different strokes for different folks!
Parametric eq is the key to getting flexibility imhoIf you're rolling with a conventional 4-band you're stock with a few voicings. Parametric and some distortion goes a long way.
Again, that is quite different from what I am talking about. I HATE any form of 'fake' distortion going into a cab. The break-up of the top end of a driver is a very different thing, and is one of the key differences to my ear with this design. For many, cleaning up those upper mids is a beautiful thing. For others, it sounds a bit too polite. Nothing wrong with that.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one; I've heard a lot of cabs with a huge rolloff before the horn pops in and don't tend to hear anything I can't replicate to the point that it's close enough with parametric eq, plucking style, and sometimes a little mild grit.
The Iamp series of heads is simply amazing for these cabs, and the Demeter HBP-1 is epic as well, for that reason.
The Markbass F500 has similar semi-parametric EQ capability (although without the 1/2 versus full octave switch in the mids.. although I never heard a huge effect of that), so I hear what you are saying there, and don't totally disagree.
I would probably find the huge, wide open low end of the iAmp a bit much for my taste with that particular cab, but I bet it hammers down low if that's what you want. That hi pass setting is really low on the iAmp versus the heads that I use.
Yeah, I use a 75hz shallow high pass most of the time these days so the big bloomy heads don't bother me. the HBP-1 is kinda bloomy too but thankfully most power amps have a nice high pass built in.
I gotta admit I am still gassing for an F500 a little. I hope they get an F800 out eventually so I can have everything I want
(1u, F1 tone, parametric mids). The F1 has been my favorite micro head by far and it does a great job with the 15/6.
The fEarful wiki has a wealth of information on the different recommended crossover configurations, but for those who don't want to go through laying out and wiring the components together I found a supplier who would be willing to work with custom orders. MCM electronics sells an 8 ohm, 3-way 18dB high power (600 W rms) unit with crossover frequencies at 800/4500 Hz. I think this would work pretty well for a 12/6/1 cab and only costs $70.39, ready to mount and connect speakers.
Invalid Link Removed
The manufacturer is AMS Audio Enterprises, so I called and asked whether they could build one with different frequencies like 630/4200 Hz for the 3015LF/6ND410/ASD1001. He said they could and that turnaround time would likely be about 2-3 weeks. I'll be ordering a couple for a 15/6/1 build and post what I get. Their prices are reasonable. If interested, here is their contact info:
AMS Audio Enterprises, Inc
[email protected]
805-500-5378
Invalid Link Removed
The manufacturer is AMS Audio Enterprises, so I called and asked whether they could build one with different frequencies like 630/4200 Hz for the 3015LF/6ND410/ASD1001. He said they could and that turnaround time would likely be about 2-3 weeks. I'll be ordering a couple for a 15/6/1 build and post what I get. Their prices are reasonable. If interested, here is their contact info:
AMS Audio Enterprises, Inc
[email protected]
805-500-5378
I really, really love the grindy mids of my EV 15L loaded Mesa Diesel cabs. Unfortunately, I'm the only one who can hear that great tone... those grindy mids are not represented in the FOH sound, as they occur in the speaker, and don't exist post-pre DI.. And if I'm required to turn down, the speaker changes tone and I lose the grind .. which for better or worse, directly affects my playing. Granted, some venues might mic a bass cab.. just not the ones where my band gets booked..
Even in non-PA situations, the sound is inconsistent because upper grind is probably inaudible to the off-axis audience.
So for live sound I'd rather have a "hifi" neutral cab with the resolution to reproduce the tone I've dialed in with my bass+(effects)+preamp. Ultimately, I should have the ability to create a unique tone at home while listening thru my headphones.. and reproduce that same sound through my amp/cab at any required volume.
I accept that distortion from an overdriven pre-tube or pedal effect won't have the same subtle qualities as an overdriven speaker or power tube.. no doubt that's why some folks keep a tube/vintage cab around just for recording.
I really, really love the grindy mids of my EV 15L loaded Mesa Diesel cabs. Unfortunately, I'm the only one who can hear that great tone... those grindy mids are not represented in the FOH sound, as they occur in the speaker, and don't exist post-pre DI.. And if I'm required to turn down, the speaker changes tone and I lose the grind .. which for better or worse, directly affects my playing. Granted, some venues might mic a bass cab.. just not the ones where my band gets booked..
Even in non-PA situations, the sound is inconsistent because upper grind is probably inaudible to the off-axis audience.
So for live sound I'd rather have a "hifi" neutral cab with the resolution to reproduce the tone I've dialed in with my bass+(effects)+preamp. Ultimately, I should have the ability to create a unique tone at home while listening thru my headphones.. and reproduce that same sound through my amp/cab at any required volume.
I accept that distortion from an overdriven pre-tube or pedal effect won't have the same subtle qualities as an overdriven speaker or power tube.. no doubt that's why some folks keep a tube/vintage cab around just for recording.
An easier solution is to mic that cab... very easy, especially if you love what the cab is doing to your sound. Most of my gigs do not have front of sound support, and other than extreme off axis VERY close to the cab, the impact of beaming is very slight once you get to the audience, or 10' in front of the cab IMO and IME.
That's why SO many recordings use a mic'd bass amp as part of the input to the board, and also why many 'rock' touring acts mic those SVT's and fridge cabs!
That being said, you will not want a 15/6 if your goal is as stated. Front of house tone is more similar to my ear to a good 2 way cab with a tweeter (to mimic the top end of those big PA horns) versus everything above 800hz being carried by a paper cone driver (of course, you could get a 15/6/1 and that would do the trick pretty well). I have VERY good luck mimicing the sound of my bass through front of house (with a decent sound person) using my Epi410UL or Berg AE410 with a relatively transparent head. That bit of grind coming out of the top end of those drivers is lost through the DI, but it makes me happy on stage, and a lot of my grind comes from my single coil pickups anyway.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
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- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
[FONT="]Resistors, as non-reactive components shouldnt change the tone of your cab. The thing to look at is this the wattage is additive, so if youre using a couple 25w resistors as opposed to 5 or more 25w resistors, your array has a much lower power rating and is more likely to fail. Also, having multiple smaller resistors gives more surface area and more airflow to cool them as heat is a given outcome of their usage. [/FONT]
No, they won't - but same value means a lot more than just "same capacitance".
If it is similar capacitance, similar ESR, and relatively similar in all specs - I doubt you'll be able to tell a difference.
I dunno, I find that through a good PA my sound winds up sounding a lot like my DI, which is what my cab sounds like.
Regarding recording: I am curious as to what the ratio is of bass recordings done bass -> preamp -> board vs. bass -> speakers -> mic. I'm pretty sure it's in the 10-1 range, but who knows.
I bet your underestimating by around an order of magnitude - probably more like 100-1 - if we look at a large swath of recordings.
It's probably 10-1 among well known folks playing nice studios.
Crappy little bands putting out demos or EPs in a little local pro-tools shop? Probably more like 1000-1.
