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fEARLESS F210

#162
CL400Peavey said:
The F210 will meet or exceed a 410 cab in volume.
Click to expand...

Does this include 4 x Deltalite?

How about 4 x BP102?

Not saying that the F210 isn't a remarkable and very well-designed cab, but I wouldn't make that claim about my (similar size & weight) 2 x 3012LF cab.

South of 100 Hz, 2 x 3012LF will go louder than 4 x Deltalite II 2512 by an average of maybe 2 dB. North of 100 Hz, the Deltalites are louder by an average of 3 dB. So depending on one's tone goals, one or the other could be louder.

Aside from their dip from 400-800 Hz, 4 x BP102 are louder than 2 x 3012LF, and particularly so in the nearly two octaves from 60-200 Hz.

And the 3012LF is about 2 dB louder than the 3010LF.

I'm not infallible so I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me. I'd pick the F210's superior radiation pattern over any 410 that I know of, I do think it's a great cab.
 
#163
DukeLeJeune said:
Does this include 4 x Deltalite?

How about 4 x BP102?

Not saying that the F210 isn't a remarkable and very well-designed cab, but I wouldn't make that claim about my (similar size & weight) 2 x 3012LF cab.
Click to expand...

It also depends on what frequency you are talking about. I would say sub 100hz there are a lot of 410's that are going to meet their fart out limits before a pair of 3010LF's. There are a lot of guys that dont need/want that content though so they may have other preferences.

So you are saying that your 2x 3012lf cab wouldnt exceed a 410 in volume?
 
#164
I'm not in the mood for getting involved in a flame war this morning, but...

I'm a long time (going on 4 years) fEARful user and advocate and it bothers me when people use absolutes such as "is louder" rather than "can get louder".

I can guarantee that with a 40 watt blackface Bassman, any 410 will get just as loud as (probably louder than) an F210.
The F210 will only equal or outperform a 410 if you're throwing big watts at it. And even then, I'd expect the difference would only be noticeable in the low end and resistance to fartout.
 
#165
CL400Peavey said:
So you are saying that your 2x 3012lf cab wouldnt exceed a 410 in volume?
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I would claim that my 212 is competitive with most 410s in volume, but I wouldn't claim or imply that it exceeds all 410s in volume. Put it next to a 4 x Deltalite, and if the Deltalite cab is protected even a little bit against fartout by dialing down the lows a bit, it will be noticeably louder than my cab.
 
#166
DukeLeJeune said:
I would claim that my 212 is competitive with most 410s in volume, but I wouldn't claim or imply that it exceeds all 410s in volume. Put it next to a 4 x Deltalite, and if the Deltalite cab is protected even a little bit against fartout by dialing down the lows a bit, it will be noticeably louder than my cab.
Click to expand...

Protected by dialing down the lows sounds like you've reached your limit and are compromising tone to exceed it.
Why not just use a guitar so you can use the same cabinet for MUCH louder?
 
#167
mbelue said:
Protected by dialing down the lows sounds like you've reached your limit and are compromising tone to exceed it.
Why not just use a guitar so you can use the same cabinet for MUCH louder?
Click to expand...

If you object to that example, I'm not going to try to force it on you. Instead, let's go back to 4 x BP102. See post #162 above. 4 x BP102 will go louder than 2 x 3012LF everywhere except from 400-800 Hz. (And 2 x 3012LF are about 2 dB louder than 2 x 3010LF... but that doesn't take the midrange driver's contribution into account. Nor have we taken anyone's tweeters into account.)

So if the question is whether or not my 212, or the F210, is louder than a 4x10, isn't the correct answer "it depends"?
 
#169
DukeLeJeune said:
If you object to that example, then let's go back to 4 x BP102.

If the question is whether or not my 212, or the F210, is louder than a 4x10, isn't the correct answer, "it depends"?
Click to expand...

The correct answer when discussing volume is always "it depends." Loudness is subjective.
This site is rife with generalizations. Maybe we should call in to question all of those too?
How many people here have lined cabs up "side-by-side" to compare and we let that slide? The inherent differences in a room from one spot to the next are infinitely variable.
Sighting the best example of a cabinet will always be a much closer comparison.
Duke, I respect your opinion very much in technical matters; it is very valuable to this site as a whole. There is no reason to start shooting down all hyperbole. You will be busy the rest of your life.Sometimes it just comes across poorly.
 
#171
mbelue said:
Duke, I respect your opinion very much in technical matters; it is very valuable to this site as a whole. There is no reason to start shooting down all hyperbole. You will be busy the rest of your life.Sometimes it just comes across in poorly.
Click to expand...

I don't think I'm "shooting down all hyperbole", well except maybe that phrase, and CL400Peavy's claim.
 
#172
mbelue said:
Protected by dialing down the lows sounds like you've reached your limit and are compromising tone to exceed it.
Why not just use a guitar so you can use the same cabinet for MUCH louder?
Click to expand...

Not at all. Again, it depends. Rolling off deep end with a variable hi pass in ANY cab can make it sound better in a mix, even rolling off at levels significantly above the tuning frequency. A shelving circuit with a low start frequency can work nicely also.

Silly discussion. Who cares. All this stuff gets quite loud, and all of it sounds VERY different. No amount of knob turning will make one of these cabs sound like another, and most modern 212's and 410's will reach volumes that will work find for the vast majority of players.

As one who has owned most of the cabs under discussion, and gigged them all with good power going into them, there is definitely, absolutely no 'better or worse' involved here. Some go a bit deeper, some have a bit better upper midrange spread near field, others are voiced to slot into a given mix beautifully and do it with high sensitivity, others go so low as to almost require external hi passing with some heads that are not well controlled, etc., etc. Pick your poison. You can get any of these configurations (including a 410) in a surprisingly lightweight package if you have the cash.

It depends... on many, many things, including the playing style and context you are playing in, and the 'tone in your head', along with power, internal voicing of your head of choice, and EQ power, etc.

IMO, IMO, IMO, and...... IME:p
 
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#174
KJung said:
Not at all. Again, it depends. Rolling off deep end with a variable hi pass in ANY cab can make it sound better in a mix, even rolling off at levels significantly above the tuning frequency. A shelving circuit with a low start frequency can work nicely also.

Silly discussion. Who cares. All this stuff gets quite loud, and all of it sounds VERY different. No amount of knob turning will make one of these cabs sound like another, and most modern 212's and 410's will reach volumes that will work find for the vast majority of players.

As one who has owned most of the cabs under discussion, and gigged them all with good power going into them, there is definitely, absolutely no 'better or worse' involved here. Some go a bit deeper, some have a bit better upper midrange spread near field, others are voiced to slot into a given mix beautifully and do it with high sensitivity, others go so low as to almost require external hi passing with some heads that are not well controlled, etc., etc. Pick your poison. You can get any of these configurations (including a 410) in a surprisingly lightweight package if you have the cash.

It depends... on many, many things, including the playing style and context you are playing in, and the 'tone in your head', along with power, internal voicing of your head of choice, and EQ power, etc.

IMO, IMO, IMO, and...... IME:p
Click to expand...

Exactly, so maybe some people's comments are "true-enough" for the person who made them?
Especially short unquantified comments.
 
#175
mbelue said:
Exactly, so maybe some people's comments are "true-enough" for the person who made them?
Especially short unquantified comments.
Click to expand...

Well, that is one way to look at it. Interestingly, from what I know about the OP, he plays in very low volume, non-busy mixes. Unless you applied maximum usable power to the cabs you are comparing (which can vary by hundreds of watts based on the sensitivity and impedance of the cab), and push those cabs to 'just below compression', you would have NO information about maximum volume at all. And, for most, it is a meaningless discussion anyway, since many players play to the level of an unmic'd drummer, not two Marshall stacks:smug:
 
#176
mbelue said:
I don't think so either, which is why this comes across as a bone to pick.
If you are going to do so, maybe spread the love around a bit? I'm sure there are lots of threads that could use your help.
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I haven't picked a bone with you; seems like you're the one upset that I challenged a seemingly sweeping claim with counter-examples. Is that not allowed?

Maybe I misunderstood the claim, and it wasn't meant to be as sweeping as I took it. Maybe my counter-examples are flawed. Maybe I have missed something critical. If so, tell me. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

But I don't think that questioning a sweeping claim is wrong in and of itself.
 
#178
DukeLeJeune said:
I haven't picked a bone with you; seems like you're the one upset that I challenged a seemingly sweeping claim with counter-examples. Is that not allowed?

Maybe I misunderstood the claim, and it wasn't meant to be as sweeping as I took it. Maybe my counter-examples are flawed. Maybe I have missed something critical. If so, tell me. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

But I don't think that questioning a sweeping claim is wrong in and of itself.
Click to expand...

Duke I don't feel that anything you said is wrong. Citing examples is certainly welcome and appreciated. The claim you are disputing was made a LONG time ago in post 14, in February. Now 150 posts later your going to step in and pick nits?
I'm sure you have good intentions but could some of these comments are guys just in love with their purchases? These types of things get said in all sorts of threads all over Talkbass if we are going to start correcting them there will be much work to do.
 
#180
Everyone take a deep breath, there's no need to get your blood pressures up.

I started all this by asking for a bit more specifics on 4x10 cabs that the F210 could compete with as far as SPL goes.

I thank everyone for their input, especially, Duke's as he knows a lot about the various drivers & how they perform in different size enclosures.

No one is looking for a bone to pick.

Adequate SPL means different thing to different players, so I was just trying to see if there were specific 4x10 cabs that players had experience with to compare with the F210 as to SPL.

This is a great thread; the F210 seems to be a great cab.
Let's not go down the path of accusations & getting feelings hurt or the thread could get shut down.

#1 talkbass rule is respect one another.

Please...

:)
 

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