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Feedback issues with vocalist equipment.

gregmon79

gregmon79

Dec 20, 2012
27,397
19,561
46
Chicago IL
#1
My vocalist has a peavey PV8 mixer that runs into 2 Yamaha 15's powered by a QSC GX5 power amp. He has been using a marshal cab as a monitor. I know, he should get a real monitor but his funds have been tight. Anyhow, he has been having problems with feedback here and there and I was wondering if any of y'all have used these specific pieces of gear and know how to set them or watch out for what not to or to do to utilize these pieces of gear to full potential without feedback issues. We usually watch the master, channel gains and adjust accordingly to ensure we don't get feedback but it still happens and I'd like to know if there is something I can do or adjust to ensure we get none at higher volumes. He's using an audiotechnica mic so maybe that may be an issue. Not sure. If there are any pointers anyone can give me with the info I've provided it'd be much appreciated. Not sure if I've provided enough info but what do y'all think? Thanks!
 
#2
is he running any effects (reverb/delay) at all. Sometimes those can add to feedback risk. Also how hot is he on the mic. I used to play with a singer who had feedback problems who would run his mic incredibly hot. When he got more on the mic we could turn down his gain and the problem was solved. Not knowing the mic model I can't say if it's a factor or not. Some mics have a tighter pattern than others.
 
#3
So many variables to consider! How are you setting your input trim...PFL LED's or some other method? EQ? How are you powering his monitor cab? Is the vocalist also playing guitar? How are your routing the monitor signal....Aux channel(s)? Got a graphic EQ onboard somewheres?

Riis
 
#4
the list of things to do is long but I'll give you a few ideas.
a Marshall cab for a monitor? wow, that must sound horrid.
put the cab angled in front of him like a floor monitor would be, make sure the back of the mic is pointed directly at the cab.
get a 31 band graphic eq, ring out the feedback.
this means you bring the volume up slowly until you hear feedback, find which fader it's on and reduce that frequency until it goes away.
bring the volume up a bit more, ring out that feedback frequency.
while your looking for feedback frequencies you can grab faders and boost them up to find the feedback frequencies you're looking to eliminate.
you can do this about 3 or 4 times and that's about it, you've found the limitations of your system.
if that still doesn't get you the volume you're after, you have to get the wallet out and buy a serious monitor, there's no other way around it.
good bang for buck monitors are used Mackie SRM450's
 
#6
Joe Louvar said:
Sorry, to many variables without enough info.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought. Let me get a snapshot of what were running the mixer at and more info. I will have to wait though because we won't practice until next week. One thing I do is that he is very aggressive with the mic. He only sings, does not play a guitar. He holds it pretty tight around the head of the mic. Also, we practice in a basement where acoustically it's bad. Just bad. I will report back with more info later. I apologize, I thought it wouldn't be enough info. I should've waited until I had more info. Sorry guys, should've known better.
 
#9
tbirdsp said:
That right there can cause problems.
Click to expand...

That's what I figured. I mean I know there's more variables we have (the band) have to look at but I always felt he clenched it around the top too much. But, I see singers do that all the time. Are the higher end mics built for that kind of stuff or is it mainly an EQ thing? I think he only spent $70 on his mic, an audiotechnica.
 
#10
skidrawk said:
ring out the feedback with EQ

what is the pickup pattern of his microphone?

Why not treat the room? for $500 you could treat your room to have a better place to rehearse. your best investment yet and your ears will thank you.
Click to expand...

We've considered doing this. But we've only talked about hanging carpet and the like. I'll bring up tonight when I see them before the show. It's a good idea.
 
#11
gregmon79 said:
That's what I figured. I mean I know there's more variables we have (the band) have to look at but I always felt he clenched it around the top too much. But, I see singers do that all the time. Are the higher end mics built for that kind of stuff or is it mainly an EQ thing? I think he only spent $70 on his mic, an audiotechnica.
Click to expand...

I know you see singers on TV do it a lot, but it's poor technique. I found the below in a Crown Audio publication online:

"don't cup your fingers around the grille of the mic -- just hold onto the handle. Holding the grille can create a resonance that causes feedback and creates a strange
tone quality."
 
#12
tbirdsp said:
I know you see singers on TV do it a lot, but it's poor technique. I found the below in a Crown Audio publication online:

"don't cup your fingers around the grille of the mic -- just hold onto the handle. Holding the grille can create a resonance that causes feedback and creates a strange
tone quality."
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll let him know. I always believed this to be true and I'm sure some can get it to work to their advantage. Every time he cups it, eventually feedback ensues at some point.
 
#13
Hands on the mic is always a problem and feedback is likely in most instances. Screamin' Jay Hawkins used to use that feedback as a technique on stage, but I wouldn't recommend it for most purposes. The advice you've gotten so far is sound. You asked a couple times about Audio Technica as a mic. AT's can be fine, but they make a lot of models. What's important is the "polar pattern" of the mic. Cardioid or super or hyper-cardioid are typical patterns for vocal mics, and they tend to resist monitor feedback unless your monitor placement is really poor. Also, I'm assuming you don't use any compression on the vocals in the monitor, if you do, let us know. Obviously also, make sure your mains are not beside or behind the vocal mic or you'll never stop the howl.
 
#15
gregmon79 said:
That's what I figured. I mean I know there's more variables we have (the band) have to look at but I always felt he clenched it around the top too much. But, I see singers do that all the time. Are the higher end mics built for that kind of stuff or is it mainly an EQ thing? I think he only spent $70 on his mic, an audiotechnica.
Click to expand...

If such a singer has in-ear monitoring, there will be a lot less feedback problems. Still a bad habit. Often people grab the ball when feedback occurs (maybe hoping to mute the mic by covering it?) but actually that only makes it a lot worse.

Another gesture I've noticed is that the singer holds the mic properly and when the vocal part ends, he/she lowers the mic to point directly at the floor monitor. And there we go again...

Also, a live mixing tip regarding the PA. Try turning the gain from the mixer to zero, then turn the track and master faders to -0dB and adjust the vocal volume with gain, NOT the track fader. Too high gains distort and compress the signal and thus cause feedback more easily.

And make sure no speaker is face to face with the mic. Monitors should be aimed to shoot directly from behind the mic.
 
#16
atheos said:
If such a singer has in-ear monitoring, there will be a lot less feedback problems. Still a bad habit. Often people grab the ball when feedback occurs (maybe hoping to mute the mic by covering it?) but actually that only makes it a lot worse.

Another gesture I've noticed is that the singer holds the mic properly and when the vocal part ends, he/she lowers the mic to point directly at the floor monitor. And there we go again...

Also, a live mixing tip regarding the PA. Try turning the gain from the mixer to zero, then turn the track and master faders to -0dB and adjust the vocal volume with gain, NOT the track fader. Too high gains distort and compress the signal and thus cause feedback more easily.

And make sure no speaker is face to face with the mic. Monitors should be aimed to shoot directly from behind the mic.
Click to expand...

Awesome. These are great suggestions. Thank you. I'll talk to my singer and suggest some things.
 
#18
Remember whenever you cut a signal you have to add power to bring signal back to original volume. Don't cut any more than you have to. Never point mic at any speaker. You have to understand feedback. It's when a signal hits a hard object and bounces back and forth gathering speed. That's why you hear it build. Also you can burn up a speaker faster with not enough power than with too much power. It creates square waves that overheat the cone.
 
#19
harleybass47 said:
Remember whenever you cut a signal you have to add power to bring signal back to original volume. Don't cut any more than you have to. Never point mic at any speaker. You have to understand feedback. It's when a signal hits a hard object and bounces back and forth gathering speed. That's why you hear it build. Also you can burn up a speaker faster with not enough power than with too much power. It creates square waves that overheat the cone.
Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense. Getting a lot of good pointers here, thanks all! I'll keep trying things and tweaking and tell my singer to take it easy with the mic.
 
#20
harleybass47 said:
Also you can burn up a speaker faster with not enough power than with too much power. It creates square waves that overheat the cone.
Click to expand...

OT, but no (see the amps forum sticky for a debunking): you can cash in a 500 watt cab much faster with a 3000 watt power amp run flat out than with a 50 watt amp.

But it's also true that you can push an amp well above its rated wattage by running it well beyond its rated THD. Moreover, the wattage ratings for cabs and amps measure different specs entirely, so that if you aren't careful a 300 watt amp can trash a 400 watt cabinet.
 

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