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Feel vs Chops..which do you prefer or think is more important?

#42
glocke1 said:
I realize there isn't an easy way to answer this, but give the choice between a chops player and a guy without amazing chops but great feel, I'll take the feel player any day.

I had a chance to play with a drummer recently who is touring with a national act, and it was really one of the more interesting experiences I've had recently.

Biggest thing I noticed about the guy is that his playing style was not technical at all, it seemed very simple and rudimentary to me but he did enough stuff to keep it interesting.

The groove we had going on was really something else as well, it's rare that I lock into a drummer the way he and I locked into each other. Lots of other guys I play with are more technical in their playing, which I think sometimes makes for a lesser groove.
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I feel it would be Feel.
 
#43
Feel is paramount.

Back in the music college days, the wind ensemble conductor would stop the whole orchestra and berate us: YOU'RE PLAYING NOTES. (also: I KNOW WHAT YOU WERE SMOKING IN THE PARKING LOT....)

That was a common expletive in those halls. If you're playing notes, you're not playing music. And it's almost immediately recognizable.
 
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#45
Both, but you have to have the sense of 'how much/where'. Playing simply with a lot of feel may be just the ticket for some stuff, but there's lots of stuff that demands lots of technique, that btw, also needs a lot of feel: I mean it's one thing doing 70's rock covers, but a whole 'nother thing if you suddenly have to play a lot of sophisticated jazz charts. Those jazz charts require just as much feel so as not to sound automated, and without the chops to play them, the performance won't breathe.

I think of guys like Jimmie Johnson or Anthony Jackson who could surely bury you in a blizzard of stuff it would take days to transcribe, yet who rarely do UNLESS the song calls for it. That JJ can seamlessly burn prog rock with the late Holdsworth and be James Taylor's band leader speaks to that considerable ability to self-edit and know what fits, know what to leave out, how to frame a song with just what it requires and no more.

As I often say, knowing what to leave out is what separates the men from the boys, but if you can't get it under your hands to begin with, 'feel' alone is just going to be lacking in some situations.
 
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#46
« Feel » « Groove » « timing » all buzz words that don’t really mean anything

At first when I started playing music I player by feel and my feel was wrong. I learned music theory and my chop and I can play whatever

I guess a lot of you would say a band like Animals as Leader is all chop no feel which is poopie you are just not there to understand what is going on

Anyway TB
 
#49
Feel and groove are everything.
I’m so sick and tired of playing with drummers who have no feel or groove. My timing is excellent and it becomes apparent immediately if the drummer is any good or not.
I’ve reached the point where I’m looking for unplugged gigs where I am not playing with drums at all.
It takes a great drummer to be better than no drummer.
I have chops, but I never get to use them because poor drummers force me to keep it simple to compensate for his lack of skill.
Of course, this applies to other instruments as well but it shows up more apparent in the drums
 
#50
The question of "feel vs chops" makes me think of "common sense vs technical knowhow".
In some careers you cannot do the job without the technical training and ability. In other jobs the technical side is not as applicable as just knowing what to do and how to do it. Having a bunch of techniques in my tool bag that I am itching to pull out and sling at a job may produce a shoddy product if I don't know how to apply them correctly.
It depends on what the music calls for and what the audience wants to hear. This is, after all, the entertainment biz.
You are better off having both. But, if I had to pick one, I would vote for "feel". Just MY opinion ... not any better than any of yours.
 
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#51
glocke1 said:
I realize there isn't an easy way to answer this, but give the choice between a chops player and a guy without amazing chops but great feel, I'll take the feel player any day.

I had a chance to play with a drummer recently who is touring with a national act, and it was really one of the more interesting experiences I've had recently.

Biggest thing I noticed about the guy is that his playing style was not technical at all, it seemed very simple and rudimentary to me but he did enough stuff to keep it interesting.

The groove we had going on was really something else as well, it's rare that I lock into a drummer the way he and I locked into each other. Lots of other guys I play with are more technical in their playing, which I think sometimes makes for a lesser groove.
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That's pretty easy to answer: Anyone can be a technical player; look at the masses who come out of Berklee. Those with feel, though, and a sense for a great bassline, those guys are special. We call them artists.
 
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#53
glocke1 said:
I realize there isn't an easy way to answer this, but give the choice between a chops player and a guy without amazing chops but great feel, I'll take the feel player any day.

I had a chance to play with a drummer recently who is touring with a national act, and it was really one of the more interesting experiences I've had recently.

Biggest thing I noticed about the guy is that his playing style was not technical at all, it seemed very simple and rudimentary to me but he did enough stuff to keep it interesting.

The groove we had going on was really something else as well, it's rare that I lock into a drummer the way he and I locked into each other. Lots of other guys I play with are more technical in their playing, which I think sometimes makes for a lesser groove.
Click to expand...

This is one of those questions that really isn't subjective at all, and in many ways the two go hand in hand: no one cares if you can play insanely fast stuff that feels like garbage because it still sounds bad.

The players getting paid the most (national touring, first call sessions, etc.), and the players the vast majority of the viewing public prefer to listen to, are the ones with great feel.
 
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#54
An old guy reminiscing:

I wish I could recall who said it so many years ago but what he said (talking about a famous musician who he really admired) was, "He only plays a few notes but he owns those notes."

Similarly, Paul Butterfield was visiting a musician friend and in the course of their conversation said, "Compared to you I only play three notes." to which the friend's father replied, "But, Paul, you play them so well!"

Especially when you play our instruments, when you provide the feel and leave the chops to the guitars and horns you'll work often and be appreciated. Hot chops are optional, groove/feel isn't.
 
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#55
Whousedtoplay said:
Sorry but your description doesn’t go far enough for me.
Tens of thousands of various bass players play that boring “Root-5th” pattern - just 2(two) notes, but all those bass musicians sound slightly different.
It’s because of “chops”.
As Avishai said, “There are million ways to play that quarter note “.
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Nope, that's because of "feel".

Whousedtoplay said:
I would like to continue with my premise that “chops” are not scales.
Let’s look at that quarter note.
Immediately, I see it as minimum four 16ths while I am trying to articulate it based on my/required “feel”.
Sometimes, I need that quarter note be “2/16ths and 1/32 long”, sometimes I need to incorporate even the 64th(what) for my “feel”.
Next, I need to be technical enough to repeat the same articulation several times, or be able to switch my next quarter note’s articulation to something different. And I am talking about just a quarter note played as Root.
Here is my question.
If I need to articulate the quarter note as “two 16ths, one 32nd, and one 64th” long, what level of “chops” should I have?
P.S. And I have not said anything about “playing behind/before the beat...” or dynamics.
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All of this still relates to "feel".

"Chops" is a combination of harmony/theory knowledge and technical skill (ie double dumb/double pluck, 16th notes at 200 bpm, etc.)

You may choose to define it differently, but that is how the vernacular is used by 99% percent of the musical community.

The all time greats like Jamerson and Jaco had high levels of both feel and chops.
 
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#56
A bass player with excellent rhythm, timing, groove, tone, feel, etc, always looks and sounds impressive if they can pull out some chops. I like intelligent bass players. They know the rules around songs, but has something jaw dropping hidden away in their toolbox. But a bass player without chops, that's all good too.
 
#58
glocke1 said:
...


not technical at all, it seemed very simple and rudimentary to me but he did enough stuff to keep it interesting.

The groove we had going on was really something else as well, it's rare ....
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It takes great chops and musicianship to make something seem so simple. I doubt it was luck how easily things locked together - under the hood I bet he was working his nuts off...
 

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