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Final plateau?
- Thread starter saltydude
- Start date
Playing is easy. Writing music that grabs the listener by the lapels and doesn't let go... that's hard.
Otto
Otto
Ok but speaking in terms of technical skill, the things we hit the woodshed to improve, wouldn't you say Keith has been pretty much on the same level for like the last 40 years? Putting aside the bias that comes from liking his song writing of course
Music as with art, science, and really life, is a journey, NOT a destination. Strive for progress because your perception of perfection is an illusion. Like a mirage, the goal post will keep moving farther away the closer you get. Enjoy the trip.
Death is certain, life is not, so make the best of your time here on this spinning blue and green ball in our little corner of the universe while you can. Peace
Death is certain, life is not, so make the best of your time here on this spinning blue and green ball in our little corner of the universe while you can. Peace
Plateau's have two very distinct elements to them, these elements apply to all musicians.
Playing is physical and mental, it works like a see saw, one on each side.
When we start playing it is all physical, we cannot play what we hear in our heads, as we improve it starts to balance out.
As our physical technique gets better, so does our playing, so does our enjoyments of the instrument.
So when we started is was 0% mental V 100% physical, now we are at 50/50 so the mental tells us to try a new technique.....and it becomes again 0% mental V 100% physical until the balance is resumed.
At some point we feel in a rut with our playing, now it is 100% mental V 0% physical, so we decide to learn some new ideas, lets say Latin styles.
So now it goes back to being 100% physical V 0% mental....if the learning side of it is understood, we know what to do but cannot...yet.
In learning the mental side has to lead the physical side once we got to that balance point on 50/50. This balance point is forever expanding, the more we learn the more it has to balance.
The problems occur when the balance is disrupted because the physical side has fooled the mental side into leading.
Learning a technique is cool, but learning it because it is cool does not work, because the mental information involved is very limited, the technique is a function of getting a sound.
So once a "sound" is learned we apply it to what we already know, so nothing new learned.
Yes it may lead to new paths, but for many the paths lead to same place, not anywhere new.
So all the time invested in this new technique eventually gets to the brain and the mental side realises it has not moved on so now the physical side is looking for things to apply the technique to, usually things you already know, so a rut forms rather than getting over a plateau.
So for example lets say you spend a year learning to pay slap, then a year learning one finger per fret, then a year learning strictly alternating finger style, so three years of learning physical techniques. Unless you learn new musical ideas the see saw is very un-balanced.
You have invested three years of time but feel no better about your playing deep down inside, you have doubts about your ability to improve....rut forms because you did not reach that plateau you thought you could see, never mind get over it.
The thing about improvement and plateau's is you do not realise you have improved or got over one plateau to the next one until you done it, they are only visible in retrospect, you only see them when you look back. It goes without saying, that to much looking back will stop you moving forward, so a leap of faith in what you are learning and working on is needed. You have to trust that what you are doing will bring results, you have to trust your teacher and what they teach.
Sure you can teach yourself, but as a rule you are setting questions to which you already know the answers.
Playing is physical and mental, it works like a see saw, one on each side.
When we start playing it is all physical, we cannot play what we hear in our heads, as we improve it starts to balance out.
As our physical technique gets better, so does our playing, so does our enjoyments of the instrument.
So when we started is was 0% mental V 100% physical, now we are at 50/50 so the mental tells us to try a new technique.....and it becomes again 0% mental V 100% physical until the balance is resumed.
At some point we feel in a rut with our playing, now it is 100% mental V 0% physical, so we decide to learn some new ideas, lets say Latin styles.
So now it goes back to being 100% physical V 0% mental....if the learning side of it is understood, we know what to do but cannot...yet.
In learning the mental side has to lead the physical side once we got to that balance point on 50/50. This balance point is forever expanding, the more we learn the more it has to balance.
The problems occur when the balance is disrupted because the physical side has fooled the mental side into leading.
Learning a technique is cool, but learning it because it is cool does not work, because the mental information involved is very limited, the technique is a function of getting a sound.
So once a "sound" is learned we apply it to what we already know, so nothing new learned.
Yes it may lead to new paths, but for many the paths lead to same place, not anywhere new.
So all the time invested in this new technique eventually gets to the brain and the mental side realises it has not moved on so now the physical side is looking for things to apply the technique to, usually things you already know, so a rut forms rather than getting over a plateau.
So for example lets say you spend a year learning to pay slap, then a year learning one finger per fret, then a year learning strictly alternating finger style, so three years of learning physical techniques. Unless you learn new musical ideas the see saw is very un-balanced.
You have invested three years of time but feel no better about your playing deep down inside, you have doubts about your ability to improve....rut forms because you did not reach that plateau you thought you could see, never mind get over it.
The thing about improvement and plateau's is you do not realise you have improved or got over one plateau to the next one until you done it, they are only visible in retrospect, you only see them when you look back. It goes without saying, that to much looking back will stop you moving forward, so a leap of faith in what you are learning and working on is needed. You have to trust that what you are doing will bring results, you have to trust your teacher and what they teach.
Sure you can teach yourself, but as a rule you are setting questions to which you already know the answers.
Here is an article i wrote about the other side of that seesaw...The Rut.
Hey diddle diddle,
The Cat and the fiddle,
The Cow jumped over the moon.
The little Dog laughed,
To see such sport,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
So what do we learn?
We know the animals involved are a cat, a dog and a cow.
The musical instrument used was a fiddle.
The kitchen items were a dish and a spoon.
From the galaxy, the moon was mentioned.
We also know the size of the dog and the mood of the dog.
We know the cow jumped over the moon, not on it or to, it but over it.
The dish ran, it did not walk, but whether it carried the spoon or the spoon ran with it we do not know.
Now it says the cat and the fiddle, it does not say the cat played the fiddle, so again we can make assumptions.
What is the connotation of the use of diddle, is it a con, or does it refer to wasting time in some way? Again more speculation, maybe more to research a learn?
But in all we have all the info there, we just need to learn it and move on to exploring the other points it raised to complete our understanding (or one understanding) of it. Continually reciting the Nursery rhyme will tell us nothing we do not already know, we will get no new information to learn by doing again and again.
Here is the Nursery Rhyme in different languages.
French;
Hé dupez dupent,
Le chat et le violon,
La vache saute par-dessus la lune.
Le petit chien se mit à rire, Pour voir un tel sport,
Et le plat a fonctionné loin avec la cuillère.
German;
Hey Diddle Diddle,
Die Katze und die Geige,
Die Kuh sprang über den Mond.
Der kleine Hund lachte, Um solche Sport zu sehen,
Und der Teller lief weg mit dem Löffel.
Danish;
Hey Diddle Diddle,
The Cat og violin,
The Cow sprang over månen.
Den lille hund lo, At se en sådan sport,
Og skålen løb væk med skeen.
Italian;
Hey diddle diddle,
Il gatto e il violino,
La mucca ha saltato sopra la luna.
Il cagnolino rise, Per vedere tale sport,
E il piatto scappò via con il cucchiaio.
Polish;
Hey diddle diddle,
Kot i skrzypce,
Krowa skoczyła na księżyc.
Mały pies zaśmiał się,
Aby taki sportu, I danie uciekł z łyżką.
Spanish;
Hey diddle diddle,
El gato y el violín,
La vaca saltó sobre la luna.
El pequeño perro se echó a reír,
Para ver tal deporte,
Y el plato corrió lejos con la cuchara.
Russian;
Эй надувать надувать,
Кот и скрипка, Корова прыгнула на седьмом небе.
Маленькая собака смеялись,
Чтобы увидеть такую спорта,
И блюдо убежала с ложкой.
Dutch;
Hey diddle diddle,
De kat en de viool,
De koe sprong over de maan.
De kleine hond lachte, Om dergelijke sport te zien,
En de schotel liep met de lepel.
Greek;
Hey εξαπατώ εξαπατώ,
Η γάτα και το βιολί,
Η αγελάδα πήδηξε πάνω από το φεγγάρι.
Το μικρό σκυλί γέλασε,
Για να δείτε τέτοιο άθλημα,
Και το πιάτο έτρεξε μακριά με το κουτάλι.
Latin;
Hey, tuom tangam, tuom tangam,
In Cat ac subolet,
Vacca lunae ferretur.
Et catellam in derisum,
Ad hoc ludo,
Et obtulit acetabulum cum fugeret.
So ask yourself this question, "would learning it in another language teach us any more than we already know?"......If not then why spend the time and effort in learning it?
The same applies in music, once a scale, or exercise has been learned, then continually going back to it and repeating it is quite pointless without context.
"But what about the physical workout you may protest?"...... I will tell you that the physical work out is the same in any music you learn, if you learn new ideas the physical work out will be in that along with new ideas to learn, so you expand your knowledge not keep going over what you already know.
You may decide to learn new techniques, or new arrangements if they are songs, but they are still the same songs.
What would learning the Nursery Rhyme is all those languages achieve for you?
What would you learn from them that you did not already know?
The reality of doing it is you are not really learning, you are using time and energy to
represent what you know, to re-package and re-present what you already know.
It might sound cool, maybe even look clever, the reality is you will start to feel limited because you are not moving forward to fulfil your true need to grow.
Think on this, if i never told you what the latin version was about and showed it to you and asked you to name any of the animals it mentions could you do it?
If i then asked you to name any items of cutlery used could you do it?
If i asked you how did the dog get away with the spoon could you answer it?
Now if something in your mind thought "Hang on this is the Nursery Rhyme Hey Diddle Diddle......So the dog ran with the spoon".....you have now made a connection with what you already know.
So without reading or understanding Latin you can now answer the first two question correctly and know you can answer any questions about the Nursery Rhyme without need to, or being able to read or speak Latin......the same applies to any of the other versions of the Nursery Rhyme....once you realise you know it what you have learned about it applies.
So it was not the learning of latin, or any of the other versions, that you learned from, it was the first one...the rest were just examples of you wasting time to learn what you knew.
This is how 'Ruts' form, that feeling of treading water and not moving on with your playing life.
As a musician i seldom get ruts because everyday is a new challenge.
Because i do not work in an office or a building that i go to each day to do the same job, i do not get frustrated. Sure i have the same routines, but the music, the artist, the town, the country may be different at any one time, and of course all will be different when i tour. A bricklayer lays bricks everyday, but it is not the laying of bricks that is the challenge, it is what he builds with the bricks and who he builds them with that brings the satisfaction.
Learning to slap, is a technique based on what you already know...you will just play what you already know....but in a different way, you will not 'build' anything new to learn mentally that you did not already know, you just did not recognise that what you learned was in the beginning and the rest of it was treading water.
Would learning the Nursery Rhyme fulfil you if you learned it in Spanish?
In all we need to learn something new, something that challenges what we know, not change it, we need to learn something new, something that we cannot understand.
Then and only then by overcoming it will we feel satisfied...the harder the task, the deeper the learning and the deeper the satisfaction we will get from it.
This deeper thinking can be something you never learned, but will realise if you think about what you did learn, you have learned it but it has never needed to be used until a specific situation calls for it.....so the situation i will create for you is to ask, "how many animals are mentioned?"
Now you will recite the rhyme to check, because it is doubtful you learned the correct amount, because no amount was ever mentioned, but you will come to the correct amount.
Where as if i asked you how many men the grand old Duke of York had, if you learned the rhyme, you will answer immediately as you learned that as a matter of course.
Now in these new situations where we take what we already know and look at it in a different way, or new way, to get new questions to ask so come up with new answers, which of course is looking at something in a different way, or even a way that may seem pointless.....but what it is doing is teaching us to get more info out than may be on show.
We can then apply this new thinking to what we already know, not just change it back to what we know, but build on it.
How we do this is personal, how we apply it is the new learning and that will give us a better understanding of the doubts that betray us deep inside.
Accept there needs to be a new change and move on to make it so, either by involving another, so lessons may be needed, but lessons in changing how you think and how you apply what you learn, not re-learning what we already know.
More over you will not re-present what you already know, because of we look honestly at what we do we may see patterns being repeated and it is these repeat patterns that are the cause of any rut in life as well as music.
To get out of a rut you need a change of thought, a change of thinking, the mind must lead the way because the rut is created, or realised, by the mind, it can only be resolved by the the mind.
We can even use humour to expose such things....take it away Rich;
Hey diddle diddle,
The Cat and the fiddle,
The Cow jumped over the moon.
The little Dog laughed,
To see such sport,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
So what do we learn?
We know the animals involved are a cat, a dog and a cow.
The musical instrument used was a fiddle.
The kitchen items were a dish and a spoon.
From the galaxy, the moon was mentioned.
We also know the size of the dog and the mood of the dog.
We know the cow jumped over the moon, not on it or to, it but over it.
The dish ran, it did not walk, but whether it carried the spoon or the spoon ran with it we do not know.
Now it says the cat and the fiddle, it does not say the cat played the fiddle, so again we can make assumptions.
What is the connotation of the use of diddle, is it a con, or does it refer to wasting time in some way? Again more speculation, maybe more to research a learn?
But in all we have all the info there, we just need to learn it and move on to exploring the other points it raised to complete our understanding (or one understanding) of it. Continually reciting the Nursery rhyme will tell us nothing we do not already know, we will get no new information to learn by doing again and again.
Here is the Nursery Rhyme in different languages.
French;
Hé dupez dupent,
Le chat et le violon,
La vache saute par-dessus la lune.
Le petit chien se mit à rire, Pour voir un tel sport,
Et le plat a fonctionné loin avec la cuillère.
German;
Hey Diddle Diddle,
Die Katze und die Geige,
Die Kuh sprang über den Mond.
Der kleine Hund lachte, Um solche Sport zu sehen,
Und der Teller lief weg mit dem Löffel.
Danish;
Hey Diddle Diddle,
The Cat og violin,
The Cow sprang over månen.
Den lille hund lo, At se en sådan sport,
Og skålen løb væk med skeen.
Italian;
Hey diddle diddle,
Il gatto e il violino,
La mucca ha saltato sopra la luna.
Il cagnolino rise, Per vedere tale sport,
E il piatto scappò via con il cucchiaio.
Polish;
Hey diddle diddle,
Kot i skrzypce,
Krowa skoczyła na księżyc.
Mały pies zaśmiał się,
Aby taki sportu, I danie uciekł z łyżką.
Spanish;
Hey diddle diddle,
El gato y el violín,
La vaca saltó sobre la luna.
El pequeño perro se echó a reír,
Para ver tal deporte,
Y el plato corrió lejos con la cuchara.
Russian;
Эй надувать надувать,
Кот и скрипка, Корова прыгнула на седьмом небе.
Маленькая собака смеялись,
Чтобы увидеть такую спорта,
И блюдо убежала с ложкой.
Dutch;
Hey diddle diddle,
De kat en de viool,
De koe sprong over de maan.
De kleine hond lachte, Om dergelijke sport te zien,
En de schotel liep met de lepel.
Greek;
Hey εξαπατώ εξαπατώ,
Η γάτα και το βιολί,
Η αγελάδα πήδηξε πάνω από το φεγγάρι.
Το μικρό σκυλί γέλασε,
Για να δείτε τέτοιο άθλημα,
Και το πιάτο έτρεξε μακριά με το κουτάλι.
Latin;
Hey, tuom tangam, tuom tangam,
In Cat ac subolet,
Vacca lunae ferretur.
Et catellam in derisum,
Ad hoc ludo,
Et obtulit acetabulum cum fugeret.
So ask yourself this question, "would learning it in another language teach us any more than we already know?"......If not then why spend the time and effort in learning it?
The same applies in music, once a scale, or exercise has been learned, then continually going back to it and repeating it is quite pointless without context.
"But what about the physical workout you may protest?"...... I will tell you that the physical work out is the same in any music you learn, if you learn new ideas the physical work out will be in that along with new ideas to learn, so you expand your knowledge not keep going over what you already know.
You may decide to learn new techniques, or new arrangements if they are songs, but they are still the same songs.
What would learning the Nursery Rhyme is all those languages achieve for you?
What would you learn from them that you did not already know?
The reality of doing it is you are not really learning, you are using time and energy to
represent what you know, to re-package and re-present what you already know.
It might sound cool, maybe even look clever, the reality is you will start to feel limited because you are not moving forward to fulfil your true need to grow.
Think on this, if i never told you what the latin version was about and showed it to you and asked you to name any of the animals it mentions could you do it?
If i then asked you to name any items of cutlery used could you do it?
If i asked you how did the dog get away with the spoon could you answer it?
Now if something in your mind thought "Hang on this is the Nursery Rhyme Hey Diddle Diddle......So the dog ran with the spoon".....you have now made a connection with what you already know.
So without reading or understanding Latin you can now answer the first two question correctly and know you can answer any questions about the Nursery Rhyme without need to, or being able to read or speak Latin......the same applies to any of the other versions of the Nursery Rhyme....once you realise you know it what you have learned about it applies.
So it was not the learning of latin, or any of the other versions, that you learned from, it was the first one...the rest were just examples of you wasting time to learn what you knew.
This is how 'Ruts' form, that feeling of treading water and not moving on with your playing life.
As a musician i seldom get ruts because everyday is a new challenge.
Because i do not work in an office or a building that i go to each day to do the same job, i do not get frustrated. Sure i have the same routines, but the music, the artist, the town, the country may be different at any one time, and of course all will be different when i tour. A bricklayer lays bricks everyday, but it is not the laying of bricks that is the challenge, it is what he builds with the bricks and who he builds them with that brings the satisfaction.
Learning to slap, is a technique based on what you already know...you will just play what you already know....but in a different way, you will not 'build' anything new to learn mentally that you did not already know, you just did not recognise that what you learned was in the beginning and the rest of it was treading water.
Would learning the Nursery Rhyme fulfil you if you learned it in Spanish?
In all we need to learn something new, something that challenges what we know, not change it, we need to learn something new, something that we cannot understand.
Then and only then by overcoming it will we feel satisfied...the harder the task, the deeper the learning and the deeper the satisfaction we will get from it.
This deeper thinking can be something you never learned, but will realise if you think about what you did learn, you have learned it but it has never needed to be used until a specific situation calls for it.....so the situation i will create for you is to ask, "how many animals are mentioned?"
Now you will recite the rhyme to check, because it is doubtful you learned the correct amount, because no amount was ever mentioned, but you will come to the correct amount.
Where as if i asked you how many men the grand old Duke of York had, if you learned the rhyme, you will answer immediately as you learned that as a matter of course.
Now in these new situations where we take what we already know and look at it in a different way, or new way, to get new questions to ask so come up with new answers, which of course is looking at something in a different way, or even a way that may seem pointless.....but what it is doing is teaching us to get more info out than may be on show.
We can then apply this new thinking to what we already know, not just change it back to what we know, but build on it.
How we do this is personal, how we apply it is the new learning and that will give us a better understanding of the doubts that betray us deep inside.
Accept there needs to be a new change and move on to make it so, either by involving another, so lessons may be needed, but lessons in changing how you think and how you apply what you learn, not re-learning what we already know.
More over you will not re-present what you already know, because of we look honestly at what we do we may see patterns being repeated and it is these repeat patterns that are the cause of any rut in life as well as music.
To get out of a rut you need a change of thought, a change of thinking, the mind must lead the way because the rut is created, or realised, by the mind, it can only be resolved by the the mind.
We can even use humour to expose such things....take it away Rich;
I saw this clip posted on TB a while back, and I bookmarked it because there was a stunning insight in it--to me, anyway!
The reason there's always something new to learn is that there's always something new _to hear_.
The reason there's always something new to learn is that there's always something new _to hear_.
Best thing I did recently was change instruments. I still occasionally pick up a guitar, but I'm 99% working on bass now. Learning a new thing is an awesome way to improve the original thing - I play guitar better now that I can play bass better. And vice versa.
The more you know about music, and how a band fits together, the stronger you can become.
I don't believe there is an absolute line where you can say "that's it, I can't go further," but as you fulfil more and more goals you may have to look wider to find something to expand your skill and enjoyment, which may well be trying out a different instrument.
The more you know about music, and how a band fits together, the stronger you can become.
I don't believe there is an absolute line where you can say "that's it, I can't go further," but as you fulfil more and more goals you may have to look wider to find something to expand your skill and enjoyment, which may well be trying out a different instrument.
I'm 64 and I've lost ground as I've aged. My speed and manual dexterity have decreased and I can no longer play some things that I could play easily when I was younger.
That's why I'm gonna switch to playing the hurdy gurdy, so I can be sure there's no way I will ever learn everything I can possibly do on that crazy instrument.
Watch videos of your favorite bass players, or maybe bass players who are known for their technique and ask yourself if they have gotten "better" in the last 2 or 3 decades. Victor Wooten and Billy Sheehan are no more technically advanced now than they were 20 years ago, because their technique was developed to express their art. The quote above about focusing on music (the final output) rather than the technique (the method of output) is spot on.
look up "The Peter Principle". That explains a lot of players.
A plateau means that you need to be on input for a while -stop your practice routine and go listen to some different music you don't normally listen to, and try to hear it without mentally dissecting it. I call it "washing out your ears". Eventually, you will pick up on some phrase, idea, etc., that will inspire you...
A plateau means that you need to be on input for a while -stop your practice routine and go listen to some different music you don't normally listen to, and try to hear it without mentally dissecting it. I call it "washing out your ears". Eventually, you will pick up on some phrase, idea, etc., that will inspire you...
The French part doesn't make any sense ( it is my native language ) so I guess it was through a translator.
AS for hitting plateau ... I think that our creative mind can also hit a plateau because you need to train it but some people are naturally more creative than other and your plateau may be because you always listen to one type of music and so your are in a "rut" or your physical ability limit your creativity.
How many "artist" we hear everyday that they pretty much never get technically better ? You hear Paul McCartney at his debut in the Beatle and now, it is pretty much the same, the songs are different, what he sings about is different but his playing didn't evolve at all and maybe his songs writting would have command better technic but he is ok with where his at.
Some people may practice twice as much as Victor Wooten but could never use the same technic nor acheive is creativity because no one can think like someone else.
Not everyone can achieve the same, the dumbing down of everything doesn't help either.
But we could see it as their high technical hability offer them to express stuff they couldn't otherwise. I hear different now than last year, than 5 years ago than a decade ago and so is my technic. I did hit a plateau in my technic but I express different stuff now, my goal changed quite a bit.
Yes I agree, all ruts are mental/creative because our thoughts control the process, or the worth of the process, that is why another "diversion" is needed to change the thinking.
Yes all done through a translator, but it is the point that is valid...after all if you can read any one, all the others are meaningless because you have the information.
Some player plateau early, and send all their time exploring that plateau, but I would not say McCartney was one of them personally.
Ass usual Clef, cool talking with you.
So I guess we could say there is two type of plateau ... a creative plateau and a physical plateau.
As for the thing you translate ... even though I could read it in English, having it in French may shed some light on something that isn't as obvious to me in English. Like a 2nd degree meaning that I may not be aware.
EDIT : Forgot to say it is always nice exchanging with you
