Financial troubles at Gibson

[Deleted member 165050]

In the UK, top range Gibsons are expensive enough to make having your own luthier-made instrument a very viable option. What's better - "I have an expensive Gibson" or "I had the renowned luthier Joe Local make this to my personal design"?

If Behringer can afford Midas maybe they can afford Gibson... expect a Les Paul with onboard fx and LCD screen that talks to both your amp and your mixing desk...

 

[Leiria]

The Thunderbird club is gassing for the new epiphone vintage pro that is coming out, because there are no Gibsons.

Even if there was a Gibson equivalent we'd still be gassing. Epiphone makes great quality instruments at affordable prices and most of us there are middle-class hobbyists. And despite this we probably wouldn't gas for a new Gibson TBird considering how expensive it'd probably be and how little care and attention goes into their modern basses

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Even if there was a Gibson equivalent we'd still be gassing. Epiphone makes great quality instruments at affordable prices and most of us there are middle-class hobbyists. And despite this we probably wouldn't gas for a new Gibson TBird considering how expensive it'd probably be and how little care and attention goes into their modern basses

The Epiphone T-Bird really killed the Gibson version... vintage and modern (active) set-neck versions for far less than the Gibson, and still with the T-Bird correct headstock. If it wasn't for that enormous ugly Epi guitar headstock I'm sure they'd have killed Gibson Les Paul sales ages ago.

 

[RubioClaves]

At current pricing Gibson is for looking at and Epiphone is for playing

 

[David Vector]

Never owned a Gibson product, though I probably had no great love for the brand name after they acquired Opcode (first company to bring MIDI and audio together in a well-implemented DAW, namely Studio Vision) and quickly ran it into the ground. Not the only company that diminished under their ownership, of course.

 

[blue4]

I'm up to three Epiphones now. They're great instruments. Walk into any showroom that sells Gibson products and look around. You'll have one thunderbird and one SG. Maybe an EB. Along side that you'll have an Epiphone EB-0 that looks and plays well and is easily upgraded with parts made specifically for that style bass, a Thunderbird pro that simply looks amazing with an updated modern bridge, a JC semi hollow that won't have any competition from any manufacturer at all, and a viola that easily competes with any Hofner in the room. All the innovation, all the marketing, all the QC gains are in the lower tier segment. I don't know what that means for their business, but to this layman it doesn't seem healthy in the long term, unless supplying affordable priced instruments instead of high end ones is their long term goal.

 

[onosson]

Let's say you have $700 to spend, would you buy a new MIM Fender or a used MIA? Most people would buy the used MIA.

I'm not sure you can take that as a given. *Many* people would buy the MIA, true - but *most*? I have my doubts...

 

[fhm555]

This high-wire act is especially troubling as Gibson (as well as many others) is in almost as precarious a financial situation as their biggest customer: Guitar Center.

And how many years have we heard GC was circling the drain?

There is also the fact that they are constantly adding new locations and a buttload of their existing locations recently received major remodels, which certainly does not sound like an organization on the brink of financial disaster.

Speaking of financial disaster, I was in my local Sears retailer last week to pick up a couple of tools that have mysteriously grown legs and run away, and imagine my surprise when I get there and discover they are blowing out their tools because they're dropping tools and outdoor power equipment from their inventory. I don't know if that is system wide or just certain stores, but that is what a company in financial trouble looks like, at least to me.

 

[GIBrat51]

I have this T-Bird; a '13 Gibson. And I consider myself extremely fortunate to have it, too. While Gibson doesn't make lefty basses very often, they do make them. Epiphone? Love to have one, but "Left Handed" is not in their vocabulary when it comes to basses. Not sure it ever has been, to be honest...My only lefty Epi is a Matsumoku-made EA-250 guitar - made 45 years ago. Until Epiphone pulls their finger out, I'll wait 'till Gibson decides to make a handful of lefties again (rumor is, 2018), then grit my teeth and pay up...

 

[mngnt]

Not a surprise to me. When I bought my American standard strat, I got a very well built instrument and it felt good knowing it was a USA built "good quality instrument". The shop I bought from said fender build quality was better than ever.

That same feeling for a Les Paul would have cost me around 3x the money, it wasn't even an option. And the guys at the shop talked about how Gibson quality was worse than ever.

Years later, I rented an ibanez artcore ($650) and a Gibson studio ($1500) and a dot ($?) and it was even close - the ibanez spanked them both in tone, looks, build quality, and price.

And while fender build quality may not be great on mexi models etc, you can find gems. Cheap Gibson's always felt just that to me - cheap. And they're not even cheap.

 

[SadowskySteve]

Sears will be dead soon. No fault of the brand. The owner, fast Eddy has pulled every little shred of value out of the company. Just dry bones left. Lawn and Garden and tools are done for both USA and Canada.

 

[rodv66]

Have a 2007 Gibson Thunderbird and it is better quality than my two Epiphone birds. I got the Gibson for a steal at auction, so that's the only reason I have it. It is better, but not 5 times better. The be Epiphone line is getting better and would never pay full retail price for a Gibson.

I think it's also so much easier to get your hands on used gear. Reverb and eBay have given you access code to sellers far outside your area.

 

[obimark]

I went to their showroom store in memphis and their bass selection was pathetic as well.

 

[rodv66]

I went to their showroom store in memphis and their bass selection was pathetic as well.

No more birds, Rippers, or Grabbers. I just got a mid 70's G3 and it's a killer

 

[funkymonk13]

I saw the article several days ago. Fender is also struggling. I think there are several reasons for this. People who grew up in the 60s, 70s and 80s remember buying used Gibson and Fender guitars and basses for $200 to $400. In the late 70s I purchased a 1972 Precision for $235 and 1978 Jazz for $275. Many bassists and guitarists my age have a difficult time justifying paying $1,500 and up for an MIA Fender and more than $2,000 for a Gibson because they remember paying much less. Yes, everything costs more but when you consider that Fender offers MIM and Squier and Gibson offers Epiphone, it's no wonder that sales of US made guitars are down. Let's say you have $700 to spend, would you buy a new MIM Fender or a used MIA? Most people would buy the used MIA. Then consider all of the competitors which have entered the market. There are many low to moderately priced European and Asian made basses that sound and play just as well, if not better, than MIA Fender and Gibson. An instrument that is taken care of will last decades and the market is now saturated with good quality used instruments. Add to that the fact that fewer young people are playing instruments and it all adds up to trouble for guitar and bass manufacturers who think that they can justify high prices just because of brand name recognition.

Fender and Gibson guitars cost more in the 60s than they do today when you adjust for inflation. Maybe there is a mental barrier though; if you remember buying things at a "cheaper" price, new prices might seem too expensive.

Gibson is in trouble in part because the CEO is a bit nuts. From around 2010-2015 they were releasing a bunch of ridiculous stuff that didnt appeal to their main base. Prices go up and down significantly each year; not really sure *** that dude is doing. Wayy too many models imo, i cant see a lot of them selling well. Gibson would do great if they downsized production a bit. Or if they wanna be mega huge they have to diversify into other things that arent guitars.

A lot of musical instrument companies are hurting though. Import instruments are just too good and too cheap. I also feel like theres just too many instruments now. Back in the 50s-60s it was a handful of big companies and then a bunch of crappy budget instruments. Now theres a ton of companies, cranking out a ton of instruments, and theres a ton of used instruments from 50+ years back in the market.
The way people are making music is changing thanks to technology. Teenagers today find it easier to download ableton, get a launchpad/midi controller and make the music they want to make. Thats not a bad thing btw, just the natural progression of music; new generations want to do different things.

Fender and Gibson are iconic brands though, and its hard to imagine they'll be gone. The key to their survival is how they adapt. I think Fender is wayy better at this, actually trying to appeal to what younger generations are doing. They showcase a lot of new bands and embrace a ton of styles. Ive seen them showcase rappers, producers, indie bands, shoegaze, etc. They had Nick Reinhart of Tera Melos showcase their new offsets and a new line of amps which is awesome; probably pissed of a couple of older dudes who wanted to hear blues licks, but theyre actually moving forward.

 

[Relsom]

...Or some investors will buy rights to the name then import a $20 instrument and slap a Gibson decal on the headstock.

The fishing tackle industry went through the same thing in the 80's. Most of the venerated American brands got sold to investment groups who closed the American manufacturing facilities and began selling che-pass imports with a brand name known for quality American made products. They flogged that model until people caught on, then took their big fat stacks and killed the brand outright, or sold it to an offshore company who continued to supply an entry level product for mid to top level prices.

Like when All-Star rods got sold to Shakespeare?

 

[scootron]

I saw the article several days ago. Fender is also struggling. I think there are several reasons for this. People who grew up in the 60s, 70s and 80s remember buying used Gibson and Fender guitars and basses for $200 to $400. In the late 70s I purchased a 1972 Precision for $235 and 1978 Jazz for $275. Many bassists and guitarists my age have a difficult time justifying paying $1,500 and up for an MIA Fender and more than $2,000 for a Gibson because they remember paying much less. Yes, everything costs more but when you consider that Fender offers MIM and Squier and Gibson offers Epiphone, it's no wonder that sales of US made guitars are down. Let's say you have $700 to spend, would you buy a new MIM Fender or a used MIA? Most people would buy the used MIA. Then consider all of the competitors which have entered the market. There are many low to moderately priced European and Asian made basses that sound and play just as well, if not better, than MIA Fender and Gibson. An instrument that is taken care of will last decades and the market is now saturated with good quality used instruments. Add to that the fact that fewer young people are playing instruments and it all adds up to trouble for guitar and bass manufacturers who think that they can justify high prices just because of brand name recognition.

I understand what you are saying, but $235 in 1972 dollars is about $1400 in 2017 dollars, which is just about what the American Professional Precision lists for. I think the stronger point you are making is the glut of used instruments and the influx of better quality foreign instruments.

Plus, guitar and bass doesn't dominate popular music as it did when I was young. Kids aren't buying like they did. Old farts like me are the ones buying, and I'm usually looking for something used, preferably vintage.

 

[ubernator]

EB Bass 5 String 2017 T

oops, yeah. I think I knew that but it didn't fit my rant at the time. The cheetolini made me do it!

Even if there was a Gibson equivalent we'd still be gassing. Epiphone makes great quality instruments at affordable prices and most of us there are middle-class hobbyists. And despite this we probably wouldn't gas for a new Gibson TBird considering how expensive it'd probably be and how little care and attention goes into their modern basses

I know, I currently own 2, I really love the classic pro. My point still stands, there are no gibsons

Like when All-Star rods got sold to Shakespeare?

when I read tbr post Penn came to mind. Really stings when I think about my 3/0 red senator that got stolen (among other rods/reels), it was one of the last ones made. Not much available now that they went to China.

But really? All-star is Shakespeare now?! I haven't kept up recently. Reminds me of all those fake sabres at big five, look like the real thing at a glance, but they are cheap white blanks painted yellow, the majority way off spine so you have to cherry pick.

I remember the good old days in the early 90s when I could go to rodco in Santa Ana (factory where USA Penn rods were made) and being able to buy prototype, show sample and other various Penn rods direct for $30-60 from Dick Barnes. Still have a few of them.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I bought a USA gold top Les Paul Tribute last year and I have to say it's a gorgeous guitar. If they had more guitars in that price range I'd take a look at them first since I prefer a set neck over bolt on.

 

[40Hz]

$520 million in debt about to mature?

If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem.
- J. Paul Getty

Yep. Worst thing that happens is you have a few new faces representing your creditors on your board of directors if you do that. No creditor wants to see your company fold until they get paid back.

You can go down in flames - or you can go down in flames and take several investment bank mucky-muck types along with you. If there's a risk of the latter, they'll seriously try to give you time. Most times. Or at least until they find new jobs with other employers.