Fingering on a fretless

[etnoo]

I’ve read your other posts and found them interesting and useful but this one brings nothing to discussion, sorry.
I’m beginner with fretless not as a bassist (started this journey 25 years ago) and I listen respectfully to those with more experience (like Rich Brown) instead of trying to depreciate what they say.
I don’t want to arguing, it is not a place for that, just wanted to clarify why I’ve recommended this exercise.

Best regards

 

[MVE]

I think it’s important to recognize that there are several elements and levels of pitch recognition so that we can analyze and practice them individually.

There is pitch matching, where we are playing a pitch along with another. Unisons, octaves, fifths and fourths will beat when not pure, so it’s relatively easy to match these if you have enough time, but hitting other intervals like a nice M3 or m3 is more difficult, for me anyway.
I practice to reduce the amount of time it takes me to match.

Relative pitch recognition- just knowing in your head what a specific interval should sound like: twinkle-twinkle for example.

And finally, and perhaps most important, relative pitch accuracy, being able to accurately hit that second twinkle after hearing the first. Im happy if I can hit plus/minus 10 cents 80% of the time.

These are all specific skills that contribute to good intonation.

Let me know if you disagree or if I missed any.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I think it’s important to recognize that there are several elements and levels of pitch recognition so that we can analyze and practice them individually.

There is pitch matching, where we are playing a pitch along with another. Unisons, octaves, fifths and fourths will beat when not pure, so it’s relatively easy to match these if you have enough time, but hitting other intervals like a nice M3 or m3 is more difficult, for me anyway.
I practice to reduce the amount of time it takes me to match.

Relative pitch recognition- just knowing in your head what a specific interval should sound like: twinkle-twinkle for example.

And finally, and perhaps most important, relative pitch accuracy, being able to accurately hit that second twinkle after hearing the first. Im happy if I can hit plus/minus 10 cents 80% of the time.

These are all specific skills that contribute to good intonation.

Let me know if you disagree or if I missed any.

Yes!
I missed the disagreement

 

[SteveCS]

I think it’s important to recognize that there are several elements and levels of pitch recognition so that we can analyze and practice them individually.

There is pitch matching, where we are playing a pitch along with another. Unisons, octaves, fifths and fourths will beat when not pure, so it’s relatively easy to match these if you have enough time, but hitting other intervals like a nice M3 or m3 is more difficult, for me anyway.
I practice to reduce the amount of time it takes me to match.

Relative pitch recognition- just knowing in your head what a specific interval should sound like: twinkle-twinkle for example.

And finally, and perhaps most important, relative pitch accuracy, being able to accurately hit that second twinkle after hearing the first. Im happy if I can hit plus/minus 10 cents 80% of the time.

These are all specific skills that contribute to good intonation.

Let me know if you disagree or if I missed any.

Don't disagree with anything. I guess my point is more about there being plenty of advice and 'content' on what to do, but very little useful material on how to do these things or why they are beneficial. Most of the time the best people can offer is "just do whatever it takes to get the job done, man". When it comes to developing secure intonation that find your own way mentality often isn't good enough. There are fundamental technical aspects that have to be understood and incorporated into how you approach the fretless bass that underpin consistent, accurate and precise intonation no matter what you play. These things are rarely discussed.

YMMV

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

To those who suggest to use a tuner: this is useless. There is no point trying to play "more in-tune" than what your ear can detect (please note that your audience will also not "listen" to you by looking at a tuner, but with their ears).

Does this mean we should be satisfied if our ears do not detect any intonation issue? Of course not. We should work hard on sharpening and improving our pitch and interval detection skills. It is a lifelong battle.

The way to work on this is to use a keyboard and practice hearing - and singing - intervals. You should particularly work on the most consonant intervals (and their inversions): octaves, 5ths, then majors and minor 3rds, then major and minor 2nds, and finally tritons (all other intervals are inversions of those).

On your instrument, start by practicing playing octaves and 5ths. There are 2 reasons for this:
1. they are the most consonant intervals and therefore those for which our pitch detection is the sharpest.
2. they can be played in position (without shifting) with a very relaxed hand shape; (I personnaly prefer playing them with 1 and 4, à la Simandl, but if you go for 1-2-3-4 technique, play them with 1 and 3 consistently). This will help you establishing a rigorous hade shape and enable the so-called "muscle memory" (of course muscles have no memory, and memory takes place entirely in our brain, but this is a convenient way of talking about proprioception).
Practice with closed eyes, focussing your attention on what your ears tell you. Sing the interval before playing it (you cannot play in tune what you cannot ear and sing in tune).
Then practice other intervals you can play in-position.
Then practice shifting, starting with small shifts.

Do all this with closed eyes (at least for part of your practice). Of course, when performing music, you will open your eyes and also watch your fingerboard (to use all visual cues available there), as well as all other things you need to watch (sheet music, band mates, chicks in the audience, etc.), but closing your eyes while practicing will help sharpening your ears and train your muscle memory.

I'm gonna randomly chime in here and say to those who hate singing and think maybe they can't (like me, I don't like singing and kinda suck at it), you probably can sing better than you think. For instance, with regards to these essential intervals, I bet you can sing "Here comes the bride/all dressed in white." You can probably get those intervals almost perfect the first time. Which means you already got I to IV and I to V locked in. I mean right? Most of us can nail those. This approach is just doing more of that. Ok! Random chime complete.

 

[MVE]

I'm gonna randomly chime in here and say to those who hate singing and think maybe they can't (like me, I don't like singing and kinda suck at it), you probably can sing better than you think. For instance, with regards to these essential intervals, I bet you can sing "Here comes the bride/all dressed in white." You can probably get those intervals almost perfect the first time. Which means you already got I to IV and I to V locked in. I mean right? Most of us can nail those. This approach is just doing more of that. Ok! Random chime complete.

Unfortunately, for some of us, our “here comes the bride” can land 20-30 cents off. Lol

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Unfortunately, for some of us, our “here comes the bride” can land 20-30 cents off. Lol

Yeah no backup harmonies here.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Not me

I am saying that people are not hearing what he is saying in the video. I am not saying he is right or wrong, just folks are not hearing what he is saying.
Folks are saying he's just talking about fretless where there he's talking about both.



People will do what works for them.
I just thought his theory and approach was interesting.

I find all those smiley faces you keep throwing out slightly unnerving. But anyway, if you think anyone should try to fret like the one guy who's singularly reinvented playing the electric bass, sure ok. But like Pat Metheny said, there's only one Jaco and everybody else should just stop.

You got one video of Jaco saying do it, and about 100 million bassists worldwide who say don't. It's all so Talk Bass. Ya gotta love it.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I find all those smiley faces you keep throwing out slightly unnerving. But anyway, if you think anyone should try to fret like the one guy who's singularly reinvented playing the electric bass, sure ok. But like Pat Metheny said, there's only one Jaco and everybody else should just stop.

You got one video of Jaco saying do it, and about 100 million bassists worldwide who say don't. It's all so Talk Bass. Ya gotta love it.

Okay, okay, finger against the fret, and finger behind the line on a fretless (which BTW I believed the whole time )

Next you guys will be saying you can't play an amp unless its tubes and the P bass has a tort guard and flats.

 

[DJ Bebop]

What is he talking about?

gary willis how to set up a fretless bass - Google Search

 

[Les Fret]

and finger behind the line on a fretless (which BTW I believed the whole time

I play fretless for 30 years and I heartfully disagree. They should be placed on the line not behind as a general rule and adjusted if needed.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I play fretless for 30 years and I heartfully disagree. They should be placed on the line not behind as a general rule and adjusted if needed.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I play fretless for 30 years and I heartfully disagree. They should be placed on the line not behind as a general rule and adjusted if needed.

Only played fretless for a short while because I wasn't really that into it, but when I had one, I set it up so I could fret right on the line. On a fretless, you can set the intonation wherever you want. I'm not sure what the big deal is. Playing a fretted instrument is totally different.

 

[SteveCS]

Okay, okay, finger against the fret, and finger behind the line on a fretless (which BTW I believed the whole time )
...

I play fretless for 30 years and I heartfully disagree. They should be placed on the line not behind as a general rule and adjusted if needed.

...
On a fretless, you can set the intonation wherever you want. I'm not sure what the big deal is.
...

Indeed, it is a pointless discussion. In the end it's about stopping the string such that the note is in tune. The bridge adjustment provides scope for calibrating the instrument to your own personal physiology (e.g. how thick/slim, firm/soft, round/flat, fleshy/boney etc your fingers are), but there will only be one setting where the placement relative to the line/marker is the same along the entire length of the fingerboard. How that actually looks will vary person to person.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Indeed, it is a pointless discussion. In the end it's about stopping the string such that the note is in tune. The bridge adjustment provides scope for calibrating the instrument to your own personal physiology (e.g. how thick/slim, firm/soft, round/flat, fleshy/boney etc your fingers are), but there will only be one setting where the placement relative to the line/marker is the same along the entire length of the fingerboard. How that actually looks will vary person to person.

Yup!
Gary Willis has gone back and forth on this himself.
In this video he says he used to do it one way, now he does it another...
gary willis how to set up a fretless bass - Google Search

 

[Les Fret]

Yup!
Gary Willis has gone back and forth on this himself.
In this video he says he used to do it one way, now he does it another...
gary willis how to set up a fretless bass - Google Search

Dead centre it is (for me anyway). If you play fast runs there is no time to adjust your intonation. So playing on the lines (or side dots with an unlined neck) with good hand setting is the way to go.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

fingering

 

[DJ Bebop]

Dead centre it is (for me anyway). If you play fast runs there is no time to adjust your intonation. So playing on the lines with good hand setting is the way to go.

I've got three fretless basses. A 62 P bass defretted, a Squier VM Jazz and a Key M-1 upright and its a little different on all of them. The Squier is on the line @ the 12th line. The 62 was behind but had gone back and forth because of that nasty Gray Willis
Not really sure, thank for giving me a reason to crank up the amp, bass, and turner "Honey, its for science!"

The Kay is, the Kay.

 

[bass nitro]

He says "you play exactly on a fretted bass where you do on a fretless". As I said, that's slightly behind the fret line on a fretless and by extension exactly slightly behind the fret on a fretted one.

This.Gary Willis play same way.