Fingering on a fretless

[Turnaround]

You can set up the intonation on the bass to have you finger 'behind the line' or 'on it', depending on your preference. Ultimately you're better off getting your eyes on the board and letting your ears do the work, but that might be a little in the future.
Set it up the way you like and go from there.

If you set up a fretless to play right on the line at the 12th fret position it will be flat by quite a lot at the 1st. You can't compensate for that error by moving the saddles. Because of your finger width, the registration point of the string on the fingerboard will be about 1/8" ahead of the centre of your finger. For intonation to be accurate as you go up the neck the contact point would need to get progressively closer to the centre of your finger intonate, in just the same way that the spacing between frets gets narrower as you go up.

So if you insist on playing right on the line, you have to actually move the position of the lines. And that really needs to be a custom job to suit the individual's finger width.

 

[James Collins]

Just need higher nut height and it will sharpen those low notes to suit.

 

[Les Fret]

Haven’t read all the comments. But on fretted you place your finger just behind the fret, not on the fret. On fretless you place it right on the fretlines or markers and adjust intonation on ear when necessary. If all your notes are out of tune when you place your fingers on the fretlines then your bass is intonated wrong. That’s the first thing you should check before anything else.

 

[MonetBass]

I've never played one with fret lines. I just push my finger down where it sounds in tune. If you can't hear that it is in tune or out of tune, then you are probably not ready for a fretless. Imagine what a trombone player must go through!

Interestingly, prior to my freshman year in high school, we were preparing to move to a town that did not have an orchestra, only band. When choosing a band instrument to play, I chose trombone, because (1) it's also a bass clef instrument, and (2) putting the slide in the correct position for each note is very similar to putting your fingers in the correct position on a double bass fingerboard. It was a very easy transition. (Thankfully, we moved back after that year and I was able to rejoin the orchestra!)

 

[longfinger]

You're making my point for me. You hit a note. It is out. Ears quickly tell you and you can correct for the next note(s). That is ears correcting a bad note, not ears making you hit the right note in the first place.

Without the aural skills, a player would not recognize notes being out of tune or bad, and without adequate aural skills won't be able to fix it.

Just using physical and visual cues, the following can absolutely happen:

Bassist tunes bass - lights go green
Plays song with band - hands in good positions, visual cues met, hands on lines and dots. He's happy and plays enthusiastically.
Band members give stink faces.
Band leader stops band, asks bassist, "Hey did you tune?"
Bass- "Yes, the lights went green."
BL, "play your open strings to me."
Bass - plays open strings.
BL, "You're out of tune by a quarter note. Did you tune with your tuner set to A=440Hz?"
Bass - "ugh.... lets see... ugh... how do I... ugh.. hold on.. ugh..oops... A= 427Hz.. wow, how did that happen? You guys heard that?"
BL, "Yeah... ok tune up, well restart when you're done."

(BTW, the above can happen too to good musicians in difficult noisy live situations where the sound monitoring is poor)

Yes, physical and aural together make playing in tune happen. The visual is a distant third. It helps for certain things, (starting, leaps) but most time we don't play looking at our fingering hand.

Yes, a good solid method for physically playing in tune is crucial for fretless instruments. On upright bass, the Simandl method is a great start. It can be used for fretless bass guitars too.

Developing the ear also makes "playing in tune" a moving target, as the margin of error gets smaller and smaller and the interval relationships get more precise. In tune for a pro is more precise than in tune for a beginner.

Without the Aural, the whole concept of "playing in tune" has no meaning.

 

[tpa]

Happy NBD. Many good advices in short time. To the question on where to put your fingers relative to the lines on a lined fretless bass I will say that exactly that is what intonation adjustment manipulates. So you decide what you want and then you adjust the intonation to obtain that. On, in front or behind - you can get what you want, limited by the stroke of the intonation adjustment mechanism.
The reason that you will get different answers is because the question is kind of upside down.

 

[MVE]

Without the aural skills, a player would not recognize notes being out of tune or bad, and without adequate aural skills won't be able to fix it.

Just using physical and visual cues, the following can absolutely happen:

Bassist tunes bass - lights go green
Plays song with band - hands in good positions, visual cues met, hands on lines and dots. He's happy and plays enthusiastically.
Band members give stink faces.
Band leader stops band, asks bassist, "Hey did you tune?"
Bass- "Yes, the lights went green."
BL, "play your open strings to me."
Bass - plays open strings.
BL, "You're out of tune by a quarter note. Did you tune with your tuner set to A=440Hz?"
Bass - "ugh.... lets see... ugh... how do I... ugh.. hold on.. ugh..oops... A= 427Hz.. wow, how did that happen? You guys heard that?"
BL, "Yeah... ok tune up, well restart when you're done."

(BTW, the above can happen too to good musicians in difficult noisy live situations where the sound monitoring is poor)

Yes, physical and aural together make playing in tune happen. The visual is a distant third. It helps for certain things, (starting, leaps) but most time we don't play looking at our fingering hand.

Yes, a good solid method for physically playing in tune is crucial for fretless instruments. On upright bass, the Simandl method is a great start. It can be used for fretless bass guitars too.

Developing the ear also makes "playing in tune" a moving target, as the margin of error gets smaller and smaller and the interval relationships get more precise. In tune for a pro is more precise than in tune for a beginner.

Without the Aural, the whole concept of "playing in tune" has no meaning.

If you can recognize A427 without any reference tone, my hat is off to you.

I can’t, but I do know plenty of people that can.

Edit: I know A FEW people who can… like two.

 

[SteveCS]

If you can recognize A427 without any reference tone, my hat is off to you.
...

In the example the rest of the band were the reference. I think the point was more about not hearing that it was out of tune. The difference between A440 and A427 is huge - about half way to Ab.

In the end, good intonation and playing in tune come down to developing full trust in your own ears and hand-shape. I recall one instance where I complained to the keyboard player that he was out of tune. "Not possible", he complained back. We both played low G and sure enough there was a difference - the keyboard sounded flat. I insisted that I was in tune which got another laugh since I was playing fretless, so it must be me, right? Wrong. It turned out that he has been experimenting with the 'stretch tuning' setting on the piano and had left it a little over-stretched. And that was only a few cents.

 

[FenderBass71]

I practice with a tuner so I can check my intonation. I have fretless basses made by different people so they really don't all play identically..

 

[DJ Bebop]

If you can recognize A427 without any reference tone, my hat is off to you.

I can’t, but I do know plenty of people that can.

Edit: I know A FEW people who can… like two.

I know a woman like that, and she is not a musician. I mean most non musician people can hear when something is off with one note against another. Like when someone is out of tune. But she can hear when a note is off without a reference tone or note.

 

[SloFingers]

I finally received my P7 fretless. My tuner shows correct intonation playing just in front of the marker. Same as my Aerodyne.

 

[MikePlaysBass]

On a fretted instrument the correct finger placement is right behind the fret.

Yes, and that puts the string contact itself right on the fret, which is why when you use your finger on a fretless it needs to be on the “fret”.

 

[MikePlaysBass]

I finally received my P7 fretless. My tuner shows correct intonation playing just in front of the marker. Same as my Aerodyne.

I guess they used the fretted dot convention. I wish it was consistent, and it mostly is but there are always exceptions.
If you have multiple fretless basses that aren’t consistent, it might be worth using the decal fret dots to cover the “wrong” ones and reposition them to the places you want and use a bit of clear nail polish to keep them from coming off. I did that once and it worked fine. I eventuality replaced it with a better bass with the dots on the right places. Removing the stick on dots by scraping them off with my fingernail took it back to the original condition for when I sold it.

 

[MikePlaysBass]

In the example the rest of the band were the reference. I think the point was more about not hearing that it was out of tune. The difference between A440 and A427 is huge - about half way to Ab.

In the end, good intonation and playing in tune come down to developing full trust in your own ears and hand-shape. I recall one instance where I complained to the keyboard player that he was out of tune. "Not possible", he complained back. We both played low G and sure enough there was a difference - the keyboard sounded flat. I insisted that I was in tune which got another laugh since I was playing fretless, so it must be me, right? Wrong. It turned out that he has been experimenting with the 'stretch tuning' setting on the piano and had left it a little over-stretched. And that was only a few cents.

I use a tuner to get it initially set. Then I ask the keyboard player (or main guitar player if there isn’t a keyboard) to play a couple notes to match with and adjust the tuning if needed. I’ve played with a lot of house pianos and most are pretty good, but not exact. The same goes for a guitar that may be off by a few cents and not worth arguing with them about it. Everybody in the band should agree on who to test your tuning to after using a tuner first. Chances are it’ll be right on, but better safe than sorry.

 

[SteveCS]

I use a tuner to get it initially set. Then I ask the keyboard player (or main guitar player if there isn’t a keyboard) to play a couple notes to match with and adjust the tuning if needed. I’ve played with a lot of house pianos and most are pretty good, but not exact. The same goes for a guitar that may be off by a few cents and not worth arguing with them about it. Everybody in the band should agree on who to test your tuning to after using a tuner first. Chances are it’ll be right on, but better safe than sorry.

My point was that the piano wasn't evenly tempered. It was stretch-tuned, which means the low notes are progressively flat and the high notes are progressively sharp compared to even temperament. Both of our middle C would have been in tune.

 

[dpbass66]

Yes, and that puts the string contact itself right on the fret, which is why when you use your finger on a fretless it needs to be on the “fret”.

Right. Never disputed that. Earlier comments suggested that on a fretted bass proper finger placement was ON the fret, which might work, but not optimal in terms of tone.

 

[syncword]

My Portamentos are set for pitch with my finger directly atop the extension of the line on the side, centering on the 12th fret and referencing the harmonic. It took some tweaking of the saddles, and they ended up not were I thought they'd be - yet this setup works for my fingers. This is why I wouldn't let my luthier set up the fretless. Only when stretching with the pinky do I need to fret it a little behind the line. Playing while casually watching the tuner got it dialed in. Great way to see if you're tending flat or sharp at different places on the neck. If it sounds good and in tune... Bob's your uncle.

Something I haven't seen mentioned is parallax when looking where to fret. Especially with the wider necks on 5 and 6 string your eye can't see straight above the virtual fret line across the neck as you move up and down, so you learn to compensate depending on the angle. I wonder if this might be part of why some folks say setting pitch at the 12th fret results in you off at the first fret. Both my tuner and ear say otherwise.

I also agree and use the one finger per fret technique where possible. That's how I was initially taught on fretted, and it made the transition to fretless that much easier. You get used to spacing out your fingers depending on where you are on the neck.

 

[H. Bob]

Use a headstock tuner to tune the strings and then to check your intonation as you get accustomed to the instrument. My first fretless (a Guild) had no markers and was so tough to play in tune. My current Rob Allen fretless is a dream to play and playing in tune is like a fun game. Enjoy

 

[richardbruce]

I found the best practice for fretless bass is a one finger per fret approach. ... And practice that up and down the neck. ... You have to train your hand and your brain to reach for and nail the pitch or you'll always be chasing it and second guessing your playing. ... You'll want to be at the point where you are not constantly watching the fretboard and to do that you need to train your hand. ... Upright players don't slide into every note they nail the pitch. ... A good fretless player knows how to not just make it sound like a fretless and that's the real beauty in the instrument.

I recommend the same "one fret per finger" to my beginner guitar students, and I think it's a great approach to the fretless as well. Makes total sense - thanks!

 

[richardbruce]

"Finger

You have to accommodate for “finger squish”.
The pitch is created where the squish ends- it’s different for everyone.

Welcome to the world of fretless.
Similar things happen when learning to play brass and woodwinds.

I thought so - thanks!