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First Build - "Lucifer"
- Thread starter TerribleTim68
- Start date
A true luthier is willing to sacrifice.
Yeah, I have the Freud 1 1/4" bit for router planing - the one that seems really popular on here.
I've had good (but slow) luck using a belt sander and a random orbital. But that was on a multi laminate dresser top. So it was all flat, rather than with the fretboard sticking up. I'm the king of "slow and steady" building, which is why I don't have a business doing it.So as you can imagine, the body wings are not perfectly level with the neck-thru portion. using the hand plane isn't working so well because the multi-lam neck-thru portion has grain running in opposite directions and then the wings have grain also running all kinds of wonky directions. Yay Zebrawood! If anyone ever says "I'mma build my very first ever build out of Zebrawood!" I'm gonna slap 'em right in the mouth, Buford T, Justice style!
I'm thinking maybe setting up a planing sled for the router out of this MDF I have on hand would be the better idea here, no? Or is there a way to hand sand this thing level? I'm all ears! Altho, the planing sled may need to wait, because it would mean dragging out the table saw and kicking the garage door open. And I don't know if you've heard the news about our air quality up here just a bit south of Seattle, but.....
View attachment 3981720
That's the one! I have a dedicated router I leave in my planing jig with that bit in it. Freud 16-106 or 16-108 for 1/4" or 1/2" shank, respectively.
The Saga Continues.....
Or, in other words, Tim couldn't wait any longer.
Let's Make Things Happen.....
So I did a bit more work on the body shape. I figured there's no better way to learn than to just do things. I've got this cool DeWalt plunge router, I've got a bunch of bits laying around, let's do things! What's the worst that could happen? 
On The Job Training.....
Anyways, a little masking tape and some gorilla glue (So I've had this bottle of gorilla clear hanging around, I'm not crazy fond of it because it takes like an hour to dry, but it also doesn't dry in the bottle) and a clamp or two and I affixed my body template to the back of the body. Yay, this looks correct! So I have this orange painted (I think it's a CMT, no brand on the little box) 1-1/2 bottom bearing, straight cut bit, if I rout from the top side that's actually long enough for the bearing to reach the template, this could work. Took me some effort to dial it in so that the bit was in just the right spot. Being a tiny bit off would leave a teeny tiny "lip" in the wood either at the top or the bottom. Apparently the cutting length of this bit was exactly the same as the thickness of the body, so get it in the right spot.
So What Did We Learn.....
Oh man, so many things. Let's get one thing straight, I've never worked a plunge router before, I've never held one in my hand, I've never tried to do anything like this. The only router work I've ever done was either with a small rotozip back when I was a drywall finisher to cut out electrical boxes, can lights, that sort of thing or some limited use of the router table where you lay the thing on the table and slide it up against the router bit. This is a totally different animal! Good lord! I totally understand the "take shallow passes" comments, but even trying to do that is crazy difficult. I also learned that trying to cut that end grain of the wenge across the end of the neck-thru portion was insanely violent! The bit just wanted to jump every time it touched that end grain. When I say violent, I mean VIOLENT! I ended up removing that bit and going to a brand new Whiteside, same exact bit, but literally brand new still wrapped in the rubber boot they ship with. That brand new bit helped some, but man, still crazy violent across that end grain! Given my choice, I would MUCH rather use a top bearing bit, maybe like 1/2" cutting length, in a table and just lay the thing down on the table, push it up against the bit and go at it raising the bit after I made a full "round". I don't know that I'm a fan of the plunge routing method. But we're also gonna need this for pups and such.
Understanding Grain.....
Clearly I don't. I tried my very best to "read" the grain patterns and come at it from the right direction and move in the right direction. I'm just not skilled here. I have a LOT to learn about wood! It's humbling, because literally the day before I was swapping the 4-speed transmission and driveline in my racecar. I even fabricated a bracket for the tail shaft to act as a retainer for the rear seal. But here, with wood, I'm still lost when it comes to certain things.
So Where Are We Now.....
I was not able to rout the inside cutaways in the horns, nor the "ends" of the horns because my bit meant that I had to place the router base on the "front" of the body with the template on the back, and when I got to that area, the fretboard is in the way of the router base to allow me to get in there. My template doesn't have the fretboard area cut out, because neck-thru, so I can't place it on the front to rout from the back. I'm not exactly sure how I'll do that part, it may just be files and hand sanding, I'll have to think on it. Or I'll head out to the woodshed at some point and use the spindle sander. At the end of it all, I've got some body shaping done, and it looks like this -
You can see on the back where I drew some pencil lines on the horns, that's the remaining part I was unable to buzz off with the router. I'm not taking pics of the 1 spot where the router got away from me a bit, I don't think we need to stress on it right now. I think most of it will "go away" when I carve the bevels in it anyways, the rest I think I can sand out without much trouble. All in all, for my very first attempt at this procedure I'm not unhappy, but I could be happier. Mostly I wanted to get to a point where I can start working on the bevels, because it's gonna be a LOT of shinto work, so getting past this point was kind of a big hold-up.
So What's Next.....
I have some more work to do to smooth out the transition from wings to neck-thru section. I have it almost there, but there's still some work to do. My fingers tell me I'm not done yet.
I also need to deal with those horns and get them shaped.
Then start on bevels, front and back. I know what I want the front bevels to look like (see drawing here), but I'm not exactly sure what I want on the back side. I may just "mirror" the front bevels, I may not. We'll see how I feel when I get there.
Then there's the neck heel area. I know what I want there, but I'm really not worrying about it yet. Suffice it to say, it won't stay like that.
So yeah, very scary step, but I did things and I got a little more work done today.
Everyone who sees it in person is blown away, but I see the flaws and the problem spots. I see the places where I have to find ways to fix my mistakes. I'm less nervous than I was this morning, but I'm now nervous about other parts. I assume this will get less nerve wracking at some point. Man I hope so. Somebody tell me it does!
Or, in other words, Tim couldn't wait any longer.
Let's Make Things Happen.....
So I did a bit more work on the body shape. I figured there's no better way to learn than to just do things. I've got this cool DeWalt plunge router, I've got a bunch of bits laying around, let's do things! What's the worst that could happen?
On The Job Training.....
Anyways, a little masking tape and some gorilla glue (So I've had this bottle of gorilla clear hanging around, I'm not crazy fond of it because it takes like an hour to dry, but it also doesn't dry in the bottle) and a clamp or two and I affixed my body template to the back of the body. Yay, this looks correct! So I have this orange painted (I think it's a CMT, no brand on the little box) 1-1/2 bottom bearing, straight cut bit, if I rout from the top side that's actually long enough for the bearing to reach the template, this could work. Took me some effort to dial it in so that the bit was in just the right spot. Being a tiny bit off would leave a teeny tiny "lip" in the wood either at the top or the bottom. Apparently the cutting length of this bit was exactly the same as the thickness of the body, so get it in the right spot.
So What Did We Learn.....
Oh man, so many things. Let's get one thing straight, I've never worked a plunge router before, I've never held one in my hand, I've never tried to do anything like this. The only router work I've ever done was either with a small rotozip back when I was a drywall finisher to cut out electrical boxes, can lights, that sort of thing or some limited use of the router table where you lay the thing on the table and slide it up against the router bit. This is a totally different animal! Good lord! I totally understand the "take shallow passes" comments, but even trying to do that is crazy difficult. I also learned that trying to cut that end grain of the wenge across the end of the neck-thru portion was insanely violent! The bit just wanted to jump every time it touched that end grain. When I say violent, I mean VIOLENT! I ended up removing that bit and going to a brand new Whiteside, same exact bit, but literally brand new still wrapped in the rubber boot they ship with. That brand new bit helped some, but man, still crazy violent across that end grain! Given my choice, I would MUCH rather use a top bearing bit, maybe like 1/2" cutting length, in a table and just lay the thing down on the table, push it up against the bit and go at it raising the bit after I made a full "round". I don't know that I'm a fan of the plunge routing method. But we're also gonna need this for pups and such.
Understanding Grain.....
Clearly I don't. I tried my very best to "read" the grain patterns and come at it from the right direction and move in the right direction. I'm just not skilled here. I have a LOT to learn about wood! It's humbling, because literally the day before I was swapping the 4-speed transmission and driveline in my racecar. I even fabricated a bracket for the tail shaft to act as a retainer for the rear seal. But here, with wood, I'm still lost when it comes to certain things.
So Where Are We Now.....
I was not able to rout the inside cutaways in the horns, nor the "ends" of the horns because my bit meant that I had to place the router base on the "front" of the body with the template on the back, and when I got to that area, the fretboard is in the way of the router base to allow me to get in there. My template doesn't have the fretboard area cut out, because neck-thru, so I can't place it on the front to rout from the back. I'm not exactly sure how I'll do that part, it may just be files and hand sanding, I'll have to think on it. Or I'll head out to the woodshed at some point and use the spindle sander. At the end of it all, I've got some body shaping done, and it looks like this -
You can see on the back where I drew some pencil lines on the horns, that's the remaining part I was unable to buzz off with the router. I'm not taking pics of the 1 spot where the router got away from me a bit, I don't think we need to stress on it right now. I think most of it will "go away" when I carve the bevels in it anyways, the rest I think I can sand out without much trouble. All in all, for my very first attempt at this procedure I'm not unhappy, but I could be happier. Mostly I wanted to get to a point where I can start working on the bevels, because it's gonna be a LOT of shinto work, so getting past this point was kind of a big hold-up.
So What's Next.....
I have some more work to do to smooth out the transition from wings to neck-thru section. I have it almost there, but there's still some work to do. My fingers tell me I'm not done yet.
I also need to deal with those horns and get them shaped.
Then start on bevels, front and back. I know what I want the front bevels to look like (see drawing here), but I'm not exactly sure what I want on the back side. I may just "mirror" the front bevels, I may not. We'll see how I feel when I get there.
Then there's the neck heel area. I know what I want there, but I'm really not worrying about it yet. Suffice it to say, it won't stay like that.
So yeah, very scary step, but I did things and I got a little more work done today.
Everyone who sees it in person is blown away, but I see the flaws and the problem spots. I see the places where I have to find ways to fix my mistakes. I'm less nervous than I was this morning, but I'm now nervous about other parts. I assume this will get less nerve wracking at some point. Man I hope so. Somebody tell me it does!
Last edited:
Rôckhewer
Commercial User
- Feb 28, 2015
- 2,922
- 9,028
- Disclosures
- Owner/Builder- RockHewer Custom Guitars LLC
Jeez... I hope not.
What's the fun in that?
The basics of construction do... yeah...
Some parts even become fun because you know what you're doing... and you get to dance a little.
...and pat yourself on the back.
... but what's the fun in comfortability ? (stagnation)
The next one, (etc..etc...).... gets some other cool twist, or artistic embellishment (inlay?) That's additionally nerve wracking af... but highly rewarding when you pull it off. And you will.
That's what keeps it interesting .
You are doing great.
You are doing great.
This bears repeating!
You've started with a really difficult combination of body shape, neck style, and wood choice. You're using some challenging techniques for the first time, and you're pulling it off. That's really impressive!
If I were in your shoes, and had the body at that state, I'd probably stop routing and use a half round rasp to finish shaping the horns down to the lines.
In terms of routing technique, All those little pointy bits on your horns are begging for tearout, or for the pointy bit to be ripped right off - but you managed to cut them pretty cleanly, in zebrawood, which is pretty brittle. I have some thoughts on your comments regarding how the routing went, but really just has helpful suggestions (which you may already know) and not critically in any sense - because, again, you did a great job.
Working with a plunge router is great when you really need to be able to plunge, but when cutting an outside template like this, it's a lot easier (IME) to just lock it in place and pretend it's a fixed base router. Then you're not fighting to keep the springs compressed while you're routing. Most plunge bases have a lever to lock the router in the down position. That's what I would do for this. Maybe you were already doing that, but it bears mentioning.
You talked about having a bit as thick as the body and doing it in a single pass - I find it's less nerve wracking (and less chance of tearout) if you use a shorter bit and do it in two passes. This is easiest with a top bearing and a template mounted on top. The first pass has the bearing riding on the template and you cut the top "half" of the depth. Then you remove the template, let the router ride on the body, and use the already-cut portion as your template to cut the bottom half. Only half as much wood in each bite means the router will be easier to control and less chance of tearout. Two good things, especially when you're just starting.
You mentioned the bit wanting to jump when it touched the end grain. I wonder if you were climb cutting there? Perhaps unintentionally? For an outside template like this (as opposed to an inside template like a pickup cavity), when viewed from above, conventional cutting would be moving the router in a counter clockwise direction, and climb cutting would be clockwise. The difference has to do with the relationship between the direction the bit is spinning and the direction you're moving the router.
In a conventional cut, the blade is coming up out of the workpiece on the leading edge. This leads to a much, much more stable feel in holding the router, since the blade is basically pulling the router into the workpiece, which keeps things steady. The downside is, because the blade is coming up out of the wood, tearout is much more likely.
A climb cut has the blade biting down into the workpiece on the leading edge. It tends to compress the fibers as it cuts, instead of ripping them out. So, less tearout. But, the blade will also be constantly trying to pull the router away from the work, which makes it feel jumpy. It'll feel like the router is trying to run away (and it can, literally, run away - I once watched someone who was climb cutting and not really paying attention, and the router pulled right out of their hands and spun off into the wall).
Climb cutting can be really scary, but when you get the hang of it, and you realize all it takes is a good solid commanding grip on the router, it can be your best friend for avoiding tearout. The thing is though, you need to know which you're doing at any point in time so you're not surprised when you either rip off a chunk of wood (because you were conventional cutting and maybe should have been climb cutting) or the router tries to bounce off the workpiece (climb cutting and not paying attention!)
So the trick is picking where you do each style of cut. When conventional cutting, wood tears out when you're approaching an outside corner or point - a spot where you're coming up to the tangent between the grain and the curve. If you're cutting "down" across grain, you're fine. When you're cutting "up" across the line of the grain, and you're approaching a spot where you're going to change direction (a curve or a point), that's where tearout will happen. So those are the spots I tend to climb. Basically, I start out conventional cutting the perimeter, and as I approach a spot where I want to climb cut, I slide the router away from the workpiece so the bit stops cutting, go past the area in question, and bring it back down into the work - then climb cut "backwards" to where I lifted off. Then I slide away again, back past the area I just cut, and re-engage so I can continue conventional cutting. This is easier shown that written.
I tried to draw out how I would approach your body. Pink is conventional cutting, purple is climb cutting. I numbered the segments in the order I would do them.
I also did a zoomed in explanation of moving the router past a section to climb cut. Orange is cutting, green is not cutting, numbered in order:
And I know this has probably been beaten to death by now, but you can always cut off less in each pass if you've got enough waste to remove that the router is misbehaving. Each of those cuts I have a line for could be two or three or four passes, if the waste was thick enough. You don't need to push the bearing against the template and just cut, you can let the bit just barely graze the waste and just go over the spot doing that until the bearing touches. Sometimes it is easier to just push the bearing to the template, since it gives you a way to steady the router. If I think that's going to be the case (like, cutting across your wenge neck stripes) I try to leave as little waste as possible.
One final "bit" of advice - smaller bits are easier to control! Above I mentioned using a shorter bit to cut off less waste in each pass. That helps since there's less bit in the wood so there's less leverage for the bit to fight you. A bit with a smaller diameter will reduce the torque the cutting edge is able to exert on the wood, and again reduce the leverage it has to fight you. Smaller bits are slower to work with, but IME it's worth it for the reduced stress. I'd rather have 8 minutes of low stress routing than 4 minutes of terrifying routing!
All that said, you've done the most difficult part so you can take a break. Pickup cavities aren't as tough IME. The router is supported all the way around, so you don't have to fight to keep it level. And there's really nowhere for it to tear out, since you're basically cutting straight across or parallel to the grain. I use a shallow bit for pickup cavities and take many passes - probably cutting 1/8" to 3/16" of depth in each pass, until I get to the final depth. Hog it out with a forstner bit to within 1/16" of final depth and it really just becomes a game of making circles around and around shaving off just a bit of wood until the bearing is riding on the template. Then drop the depth down a step and repeat...
Wow!.....This should be a sticky or something......Brilliant!....
Excellent diagram, one picture being literally more useful than 100 words. I've been wondering if the finely graded bearing wheels LMI and Stewmac sell for binding channels (metered in .010" increments) would help with multiple passes on wild grain. That way you could always keep the bearing tight to template, and gradually "sneak" up to your final cut in .010" passes.
If you were going to do that, you’d need a larger then actual size template. The bearings are smaller then the cutter size so they cut a ledge. However, I’d guess you could go to Motion Industries or a similar bearing place and find bearings larger then the cutter. Just bring your own calipers and/or micrometer.
Thanks Rock! Means a lot....You are doing great.
I feel like sometimes the bar is pretty high here in the LC. You guys are amazing and turn out some insane work.
Thanks Rock! Means a lot.
I feel like sometimes the bar is pretty high here in the LC. You guys are amazing and turn out some insane work.
Hah, pretty sure my job here is lowering the bar!
Thanks @dwizum! This is an amazingly awesome post, and I appreciate you just taking the time to just type all this, much less share the info.
Yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing, just because I don't really want to wait until I go out to the woodshed again and I have a half-round file on hand and have become pretty good friends with it.
Yup, I did use the plunge lock (I think that's what they called it in the manual). Took me some time to set the depth stop exactly where I wanted it, then I'd push it down and lock it before I started trying to make it cut. I saw zero way that I was gonna be able to hold it down while moving it around. Looking back on it, this is one of those things where I'm really good at making my life harder because I could have just put it in the stationary base and set the depth and went to town. I'm still not sure why I didn't consider switching bases. Probably because my brain was thinking "you need the bit not exposed when you turn the thing on, because fingers are cool" or something like that. I don't know.
I totally agree here. This was just a case of "Tim didn't want to wait" and the pile of bits I had on hand were all rather long bottom bearing stuff, no short top bearing bit. I will FOR SURE be adding something like a 1/2" length top bearing bit to my "collection" soon. I would much rather do it exactly like you described. But like I said, sometimes I just run out of patience.
Wow, this is amazing info, thank you for all of that. I need some time to read it a few times and digest all of it before I will fully understand, but this is great stuff!
To be honest with you, all of those little scallops and pointy bits, I don't really remember which way I was trying to cut. I do remember that end grain on the neck-thru though! It's tricky because like I said, the template was on the back and my router was on the front, so the body was "flipped" from your image. So here's a diagram showing my direction on that end grain, the red line is the direction I tried to go and the bit would literally skip off like those little red arrows show. I mean, as soon as it would touch, it would just jump out like that! When I came at it from the blue arrows it worked MUCH better and I was able to get it to cut without going crazy.
Red = BAD! Blue = Much better.
Again, thank you for all the info, and the support!
Attachments
Looking at your marked up drawing, the red was climb cutting - so, yeah, the router is going to be "jumpy" especially running into something really coarse like wenge endgrain, or something really dense like purpleheart.
The short story is, conventional cutting (counterclockwise) is easier to control but more likely to tear out when going "up" or across grain. Climb cutting (clockwise) is harder to control (until you get the feel for it, then it's easier), but it's less likely to tear out. The trick to climb cutting safely is to be really assertive with your grip. You have to be ready for the router to try to pull itself away. One thing I do that helps is make sure my body posture is good, such that my arms aren't extended out too far. I try to keep my elbows in close to my body, or "anchor" my elbows by planting them against the workpiece or the table top. The router will have less leverage to fight you if you keep your arms rigid and tight.
Reading the grain is basically about watching when you would be going "uphill" or downhill with respect to the grain lines. The guy who taught me used hills as an analogy, and that's what really helped it stick for me. Look at my purple cut #2 in my marked up diagram. It's a conventional cut (counterclockwise around the workpiece). But, you're going "uphill" against the grain lines on that lower bout. This is fine when you're "at the bottom of the hill" but as you approach the top of the hill, the bit has a really high chance of ripping splinters out. So you stop, and climb cut the top of the hill. The marked up cut #3 in my diagram is that "climb cut back down the hill" step.
So the rule basically becomes: watch the grain lines, and if you're starting to cut "uphill" make sure you stop before the top of the hill, and climb cut from the top back down.
All that said, there are a lot of solutions and techniques for routing and I'm sure other people could come in here and share their ideas which would be completely different. There's always more to learn!
The short story is, conventional cutting (counterclockwise) is easier to control but more likely to tear out when going "up" or across grain. Climb cutting (clockwise) is harder to control (until you get the feel for it, then it's easier), but it's less likely to tear out. The trick to climb cutting safely is to be really assertive with your grip. You have to be ready for the router to try to pull itself away. One thing I do that helps is make sure my body posture is good, such that my arms aren't extended out too far. I try to keep my elbows in close to my body, or "anchor" my elbows by planting them against the workpiece or the table top. The router will have less leverage to fight you if you keep your arms rigid and tight.
Reading the grain is basically about watching when you would be going "uphill" or downhill with respect to the grain lines. The guy who taught me used hills as an analogy, and that's what really helped it stick for me. Look at my purple cut #2 in my marked up diagram. It's a conventional cut (counterclockwise around the workpiece). But, you're going "uphill" against the grain lines on that lower bout. This is fine when you're "at the bottom of the hill" but as you approach the top of the hill, the bit has a really high chance of ripping splinters out. So you stop, and climb cut the top of the hill. The marked up cut #3 in my diagram is that "climb cut back down the hill" step.
So the rule basically becomes: watch the grain lines, and if you're starting to cut "uphill" make sure you stop before the top of the hill, and climb cut from the top back down.
All that said, there are a lot of solutions and techniques for routing and I'm sure other people could come in here and share their ideas which would be completely different. There's always more to learn!
Thanks again @dwizum, lot of good info here.
I've been really enjoying turning things on the lathe and I started watching this guy, he has a really great video on which direction to cut. Even though it's for bowl turning, the terminology and methodology is similar -
The problem I'm having is just inexperience in "seeing" what it is I'm looking at (along with understanding bit spin direction) when trying to translate this to something like a body blank. But I do like his "broom bristles" analogy.
I can see where LOTS more hands-on experience makes a huge difference here.
I've been really enjoying turning things on the lathe and I started watching this guy, he has a really great video on which direction to cut. Even though it's for bowl turning, the terminology and methodology is similar -
The problem I'm having is just inexperience in "seeing" what it is I'm looking at (along with understanding bit spin direction) when trying to translate this to something like a body blank. But I do like his "broom bristles" analogy.
I can see where LOTS more hands-on experience makes a huge difference here.
I'll just add that IMHO, the best use of the plunge base in luthiery, is sitting on the workbench holding my papers from blowing all over.
I'd also add that when routing the sides at full side depth, I ensure there is no more than 1/8" of wood being taken off, and actually try to get it down to 1/16" or so. The less I take off, the less likely to get tearout.
I'd also add that when routing the sides at full side depth, I ensure there is no more than 1/8" of wood being taken off, and actually try to get it down to 1/16" or so. The less I take off, the less likely to get tearout.
You just use a fixed base for pup and control cavities? Hog it out with the forstner and then fixed base router?
