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First gig with D800+ and SW15
- Thread starter USAJO
- Start date
I never played an outdoors gig where my amp that was almost too loud indoors wasn't nearly enough outside: No room bounce, few reflective surfaces.
It is a great 115, but it is still a 115. In my limited gigging experience, running a single was never a great thing. You are also toe to toe with a pair of bass drums on a riser! I suggest adding another cab, but decide what you want to hear as a result before selecting that cab! Basically, if you want to cut thru add a SW112, if you want to power through add a SW115. Thirdly if necessary, and I call this "the stack" since it adds the SW210's which disperse upwards from the floor very well (to my ears at least) and the option of either running all three cabs off the D800+, or running the 210's off another amp at up to 600w.
Also, Agedhorse had advised me that three SW115's would "probably" be able to replace specifically the pair of 18" JBL's I needed for the last group I was in, and even those 18's were topped by a pair of JBL 15's to "cut through."
And almost lastly, you are playing ZZ Top, having attended two of their indoor shows I can say that you really need to power through AND cut : ) So go for "the stack."
UNLESS YOU GUYS ARE GOING FOR "CRUISE SHIPPY."
You may also want to cover the drum riser with mexican blankets.
The stack : )
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Either getting the speaker cab up or getting it POINTING at yr ears will usually make a huge difference
I had my ears relocated to my ankles so I don’t need to elevate or tilt my cab.
Nice. I’ve read that ZZ TOP is crazy loud out front but on stage they are surprisingly quiet.
I just want be comfortably loud on stage. So it feels like rock and not a lounge act.
Maybe it was just because we were on stone tile and had no walls. I’ll give it another gig or two I guess. Unless I can find a great deal on another used Subway cab,
- Feb 12, 2006
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Outdoors, you don't get the reflective energy on stage that you get indoors, it's a whole different vibe on stage.
I imagine their stage volume was variably dependant upon the era's and venues they played. The indoor 80's show I attended was at the Berkeley Civic Auditorium which was smallish and the new San Jose Arena (enormous) in the mid nineties. The Berkeley show way way too much poor quality sounding bass, it was unpleasant. The San Jose Arena show:
was a five channel (?) surround system and was awesome. Both shows were so loud in enclosed buildings that the stage volume could not have possibly been quiet, except with earplugs, iems, they must have worn something.
I guess the main thing is your system can always be kept at a reasonable level for circumstances using the controls, but it has to be able to make the grade.
: )
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Aw , instrumentlevel , those 2 SW 15 cabs look great. I use a single 215 cabinet. I like how your camera angle features their depth and height to scale. They are no joke.
The way you have them stacked is ideal , as in , about 3 feet tall , give or take.
Back in 2010, I used a JBL PRX 618s-xlf sub as the bottom. I put a single 15 cab on top - don’t remember what it was.
The low end was proper but the mids and highs from that single 15 were not useful.. Then I put a 210 on top - still , not useful.
It was a reggae band. The low end from that jbl 18” sub was breathtaking but there was zero articulation
above the 5th fret on my 5 string G&L even with that 210
on top. I sold the whole lot and paid a high price for a builder to make me a fEARful 1515/66 to the tune of ~ $1200.00 shipped from AZ to San Diego back in the end of 2010. Still gig it for reggae. I configured my rack/amp with my fEARful as the centerpiece.
So , yes , those 2 SW 15 cabs must sound great.
The way you have them stacked is ideal , as in , about 3 feet tall , give or take.
Back in 2010, I used a JBL PRX 618s-xlf sub as the bottom. I put a single 15 cab on top - don’t remember what it was.
The low end was proper but the mids and highs from that single 15 were not useful.. Then I put a 210 on top - still , not useful.
It was a reggae band. The low end from that jbl 18” sub was breathtaking but there was zero articulation
above the 5th fret on my 5 string G&L even with that 210
on top. I sold the whole lot and paid a high price for a builder to make me a fEARful 1515/66 to the tune of ~ $1200.00 shipped from AZ to San Diego back in the end of 2010. Still gig it for reggae. I configured my rack/amp with my fEARful as the centerpiece.
So , yes , those 2 SW 15 cabs must sound great.
Yes adding another Cab should help with setup as was at this Gig
But I would re-read all of @agedhorse post; He not only designed equipment but from what I have read tested it in all situations
Also Andy has vast experience and understanding in live sound management
IME experience he is spot on especially this "As a general suggestion, when something isn’t working as expected, get rid of the outboard devices and get back to basics."
I am glad Andy said this[ I mentioned it once in a similar post and got let say a bad reaction from many here
I was managing a Home audio store way back and my sister said her Navy boyfriend just got back from Japan [when Dollar was super strong] with a Pioneer Stereo and can't get it to sound good
Went to his home and he had a floor to ceiling stack including 12 band EQ, Delay, Reverb and 1 or 2 more I can't remember add ons
5 minutes later after getting behind system I said try it now; He played it and said Wow that sounds 100% better what did you do
I said I turned off all that unnecessary crap; then told him if you want to use those pieces first listen to system as is then add 1 piece at a time and make sure it is not compromising overall sound and just adding small change your pleased with
PS I left add on's powered in away he still had his 'Light Show' without interfering with sound
But I would re-read all of @agedhorse post; He not only designed equipment but from what I have read tested it in all situations
Also Andy has vast experience and understanding in live sound management
IME experience he is spot on especially this "As a general suggestion, when something isn’t working as expected, get rid of the outboard devices and get back to basics."
I am glad Andy said this[ I mentioned it once in a similar post and got let say a bad reaction from many here
I was managing a Home audio store way back and my sister said her Navy boyfriend just got back from Japan [when Dollar was super strong] with a Pioneer Stereo and can't get it to sound good
Went to his home and he had a floor to ceiling stack including 12 band EQ, Delay, Reverb and 1 or 2 more I can't remember add ons
5 minutes later after getting behind system I said try it now; He played it and said Wow that sounds 100% better what did you do
I said I turned off all that unnecessary crap; then told him if you want to use those pieces first listen to system as is then add 1 piece at a time and make sure it is not compromising overall sound and just adding small change your pleased with
PS I left add on's powered in away he still had his 'Light Show' without interfering with sound
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I have a D800+ with 1-15" and 2-10" Subway cabinets. It's rare that I must use both except outdoors. I've used either at indoor venues without issues. When playing indoors, I place my cabinet in a corner of the stage, close to the back wall. Outside that is not an option.I have a D800+ with 1-15" and 2-10" Subway cabinets. It's rare that I must use both except outdoors. I've used either at indoor venues without issues so far When playing indoors, I place my cabinet in a corner of the stage, close to the back wall. Outside that's not an option.
It's rare that I'll play an outdoor gig where I don't (in addition to having a cabinet behind me - most likely a 410) have my bass in my monitor. Outdoor sound is completely different from indoor sound.
Giving it some more thought maybe the 2200 watt JBL sub was so close to me and so strong it just buried the SW15 and D800+
Sorry I haven’t been gigging on bass in close to 10 years so I’m just trying to settle in with the gear.
The last time I gigged on bass I was using a WT400 into an Epifani UL212.
I appreciate all of the relies.
Sorry I haven’t been gigging on bass in close to 10 years so I’m just trying to settle in with the gear.
The last time I gigged on bass I was using a WT400 into an Epifani UL212.
I appreciate all of the relies.
They sure look like it. That is probably a Tama 24. pair and if he flams those at any point, it's double the volume even if they are not mike and they are A lot of those polished cymbals are also loud in general, Possibly a 100 watt marshall, even the 50 watter can kill flies instantly. Plus the sub that close to the bass cab. I would cut the bass and the bass amp sim on the SGTDI is probably making it worse. I would also point the cab at me and even take it out of the FOH,Maybe you guys just play super loud.
It’s pretty sobering how much the amplification strategy for bass has to change in the absence of boundary reinforcement and floor resonance. I’ve blown a few drivers trying to toggle from the warm embrace of a mid size room to the cold handshake of a stone or tarmac “stage” with no rear wall or even a tent, while trying to use the same rig. I now have separate “indoor “ and “outdoors “ rigs for this very reason. My outdoors rig was a 2x15 for many years, only recently replaced by two Barefaced 12s. I was seriously considering a SW 215 when a friend gave me a good deal on the BFs.
Sometimes, the venue just plain sucks for bass sound, and you have to embrace the twang, trusting that it still registers as “bass” to the audience. I played for years (in the 90’s) on a small decommissioned ferry boat (built 1951) used for pleasure cruises on a large canal subject to tidal changes in current. It had a steel deck and no walls near the “stage”. When going against the current, the engine noise was somewhere between low F and F sharp at about 95 db. Just a nightmare! I had to wear earplugs and stay off the E string just to be heard. If I didn’t settle for the bare minimum of audibility and articulation, I probably would have spent thousands and lost my mind trying to get “tone” on what should be an enjoyable, lucrative, gig. Still, it sold out and people danced, so…
I just recently started playing that gig again with my current band, and was delighted to discover that the ship company bought a newer boat (still an old ferry, but built 40 years ago, not 75). It had a nice quiet engine, and an outdoor “enclosure “ for the band. I went with a single BF (raised to chest level) and it was thunderous.
Sometimes, the venue just plain sucks for bass sound, and you have to embrace the twang, trusting that it still registers as “bass” to the audience. I played for years (in the 90’s) on a small decommissioned ferry boat (built 1951) used for pleasure cruises on a large canal subject to tidal changes in current. It had a steel deck and no walls near the “stage”. When going against the current, the engine noise was somewhere between low F and F sharp at about 95 db. Just a nightmare! I had to wear earplugs and stay off the E string just to be heard. If I didn’t settle for the bare minimum of audibility and articulation, I probably would have spent thousands and lost my mind trying to get “tone” on what should be an enjoyable, lucrative, gig. Still, it sold out and people danced, so…
I just recently started playing that gig again with my current band, and was delighted to discover that the ship company bought a newer boat (still an old ferry, but built 40 years ago, not 75). It had a nice quiet engine, and an outdoor “enclosure “ for the band. I went with a single BF (raised to chest level) and it was thunderous.
If the sub bleed is overwhelming, getting your cab up high and aiming it at your ears may help. Also dial back the lows in your amp, (assuming pre EQ DI going to FOH). If the DI has a polarity switch try the other position. Flipping to polarity doesn't fix the problem but it can move the problem to a less problematic frequency.
+1. I'm wondering if the Ohm switch was set on "2"?...
I would turn up the volume knob
If your rig is parked right next to that sub, you are likely experiencing some frequency cancellation. I ran into a similar issue at an outdoor gig a few years ago. You may want to check where the filters are set on the sub - and I’d recommend setting up your rig on the opposite side away from the sub, ideally tilted up so more sound is directed at your ears, not your pant legs.
What I think most people forget is that phase cancellations occur at different distances depending on frequencies, so it is unavoidable across the spectrum. Separating the PA Sub from the SW115 should reduce phasing issues, since the "amplitude" of the cancelling waves where they intersect will be lower....
