Fitzmaurice Subs for low F#

[B-string]

Kodos to anyone that can "hear" 13.75Hz! My hearing range is pretty low at 16Hz, lost my upper range to age 19.5Khz from 23.6Khz.
Yes the US Navy wanted me for sonar, can't handle small spaces though.

 

[greenboy]

Let me clarify. In the vast majority of cases what people think they're hearing in the low end and what they're actually hearing is usually off by about an octave, sometimes two. While one may have a source that goes to 20Hz, and speaker capable of going that low, you just don't hear stuff down there unless it is at very high volume, far higher than even an Infra can produce. I regularly measure 20 Hz output of subs and can attest that even at 105dB at a range of 3 feet a 20Hz tone is barely audible.

The Equal Loudness Contour chart, for those who have forgotten:

Link Removed

You'se guys should see that it takes about 109-110 dB at 20 Hz to keep up with 60 dB at 1K Hz. And 60 dB is a very slight level actually.

 

[the_ruckus]

I would HIGHLY recommend bi-amping your rig with the use of a crossover just so you don't send that low low signal to your other speakers and murder your tone. i would send everything from 63+ or 80+ to your 10's (or whatever you may have) and anything below to an appropriate power amp, then to your sub. Unless you are using proper power, i doubt you will actually hear the notes, but you will feel it for sure.

 

[Michael Vee]

Before Bill says it: You should post this on the forums at his site. There are a lot more users of his designs there than here.

Actually, there are a lot of BFM builders/players here on Talkbass, judging from the number of threads and posts on the subject.

Since BFM forums are about all uses of the designs, not just bass guitar use, it's good that there is discussion here on Talkbass as well.

In fact, it'd be very good if a separate TB forum area were set up to discuss them so it'd all be in one place.

 

[knuckle_head]

They claim the first A on the piano to be A0 not A1. The first site I was quoting was a foreign site, so I thought there might be an error, but both of them show the Keys starting at A0, B0, C1. Now this to me doesn't seem logical either, why not A1, B1, C1?

SO if there two universities are correct then your A would be an A00...

Anyway, I will go listen to those sound clips. I always played a 4 string and didn't have to mess with these lower frequencies, but now that I have them, I like having them.

I'll go listen to those clips and see if there is a reason to even think about going lower. But I don't see at this point why below low A. If you had a keyboard player, thats all the lower they could go too.

You might have to build a custom amplifier if you truly want to amplify at 13.75Hz. I can flip a light switch that fast... You'd probably have to cut the high pass filter out of a SS amp or have custom iron wound for the output of a tube amp. The tubes wouldn't care.

BOB

Anyway, thanks

I prefer to mark my keys with the fundamental so as to avoid the 0-1-2 thing - I'm not really clear on it myself to be honest, and as long as the frequency is specified there are no questions.

As long as you're listening to clips you should take a listen to these guys - Link Removed - listen to No One Likes a Fool and The Slow Vibration. Both are potentially in E0-20 Hz, though one could be F#.

Any amp rig would have to be a biamp deal, and I am looking at SR or McIntosh gear for the task - there will be ample head room for the sub to be sure. The sub will carry no more than 55 Hz.

 

[greenboy]

Contrabass Mania Table of Frequencies and Note Names

 

[knuckle_head]

Contrabass Mania Table of Frequencies and Note Names

It seems they need a bit more information...

 

[spode master]

Let me clarify. In the vast majority of cases what people think they're hearing in the low end and what they're actually hearing is usually off by about an octave, sometimes two. While one may have a source that goes to 20Hz, and speaker capable of going that low, you just don't hear stuff down there unless it is at very high volume, far higher than even an Infra can produce. I regularly measure 20 Hz output of subs and can attest that even at 105dB at a range of 3 feet a 20Hz tone is barely audible.

I certainly agree with bill here, things start getting interesting once you get above 110dB @ 20Hz.

But as greenboy states given the equal loudness curves, even if you have clean 20Hz above that pressure level it can be almost totally masked by tones in the bass lower and upper mid range that are 20dB or more quiter than that 20Hz pitch.

The amazing thing about clean Sub bass that low, is you can start rattling everything around you, even feel the pressure, but the sound of windows rattling and beams creaking will be more apparent than the fundamental pitch.

I have built 2 sub bass rigs so far. 1 takes about 12cu' (2 Cabs) and can reproduce 20hz at ~116dB, and the small one 4cu' can do 20Hz ~111dB. They are both great if you play with musicians that can restrain themselves. But they are quite large and heavy.

To have a representative amount of fundamental from your bass you need ~ a 6dB per octave boost in your low end that is determined by your pickup position.

Once you get there you may or may not like what you have. But it certainly costs a premium, and is for the most part impractical.

I'd shoot for a good solid 45Hz rig, unless you feel like going nuts.

 

[greenboy]

It seems they need a bit more information...

Awrighty ; }

Any note is comprised of a fundamental and the harmonics derived from it. This is called the natural overtone series. With an electric bass string the overtones come from vibrations of subdivisions of the string. Each overtone is a multiple of the fundamental frequency.

If that fundamental is low A below a five-string's low B (27.5 Hz), the first few harmonics are:

27.5 * 2 = 055.0 Hz (octave up; open A on standard bass)
27.5 * 3 = 082.5 Hz (1 octave and a perfect fifth up)
27.5 * 4 = 110.0 Hz (2 octaves up)
27.5 * 5 = 137.5 Hz
27.5 * 6 = 165.0 Hz
27.5 * 7 = 192.5 Hz
27.5 * 8 = 220.0 Hz (3 octaves up)
...and so on

The characteristic tone of any instrument is defined by the changing balance of various overtones waxing and waning during its duration. An electric bass's lower notes typically have less fundamental energy than the amount of energy the next few overtones above it display. The reproduction of this note through an amplification system further changes this distribution/balance, and due to psychoacoustics I won't get into here, it's not necessary that the fundamental be fully represented as long as the overtones above are decently portrayed. The ear senses the spacing between overtones and understands and "hears" the missing or partially-represented overtone.

This is especially relevant for instruments that play especially low pitches since sound reproduction systems often cannot adequately represent their lower fundamentals.

 

[spode master]

Awrighty ; }
This is especially relevant for instruments that play especially low pitches since sound reproduction systems often cannot adequately represent their lower fundamentals.

And when you finally put some one in front of something that can reproduce those fundamentals, they either love it or !!HATE!! it.

 

[spode master]

I prefer to mark my keys with the fundamental so as to avoid the 0-1-2 thing - I'm not really clear on it myself to be honest, and as long as the frequency is specified there are no questions.

As long as you're listening to clips you should take a listen to these guys - Link Removed - listen to No One Likes a Fool and The Slow Vibration. Both are potentially in E0-20 Hz, though one could be F#.

Any amp rig would have to be a biamp deal, and I am looking at SR or McIntosh gear for the task - there will be ample head room for the sub to be sure. The sub will carry no more than 55 Hz.

There is very little or no fundamental in those low tones. Its all overtone.

Don't waste your money on a McIntosh amp for Bass guitar, just because the dead did it back in the 70's doesn't make McIntosh a good choice for the modern bass player. To much weight, not rugged enough for traveling being beaten on the road. You would get plenty of quality bass from a Carvin amp. If you want something full range and light weight and audio(peda)phile ish, go for something that uses a B&O ICE amp.

Most people cross their subs over at ~80Hz crossing over at 55Hz would give the sub a little more than an octave.

I'll give you a link to a crappy little rough draft of a track I did for a band I was playing with. I actually EQe'd in a lot of fundamental (to be flat with the 2nd harmonic) and you still don't really get a sense of it because the overtones were so dominant.

This track is nothing to be proud of, but it actually has a lot of content in the 30Hz range.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=317405&songID=2528463

 

[rbonner]

Gregg Bailey is apparently a total Whack Job, I shiver at faster than 4Hz.

I can barely tell the difference walking up the fingerboard on my B string as it is. I could handle drop tuning to A0 I suppose... I like that list, F# is used on 9 string basses...

OK I will get one of those. It is played like a harp right?

I'm still wondering, how you reproduce this stuff to get reasonable useable volume out of it? If BFM can barely hear 20Hz at 105DB what purpose does it serve? Sounds like NONE. Hitler probably did human testing on these frequencies on shake tables.

OK I see Knuck has some customers using tuning there, but listen to those clips I didnt necessarily hear F# blasting away.

Even like I said, on my B string, I play a lot of E. To each his own I suppose. BOB

 

[rbonner]

This track is nothing to be proud of, but it actually has a lot of content in the 30Hz range.

Spode, was cool, a touch dark, nice. Fits my mood right now.

30Hz content. I like 30 Hz content. BOB

 

[greenboy]

I'm still wondering, how you reproduce this stuff to get reasonable useable volume out of it?

Focus, Bob, FOCUS! There's a post a few steps above that talks about how a note is comprised of many overtones. Read that thing! It covers this.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

If BFM can barely hear 20Hz at 105DB what purpose does it serve?

Where music is concerned, none, other than pipe organ music and the 1812 Overture, and even then the 20 Hz content isn't heard, it's felt. In Home Theater content below 30 Hz is also more felt than heard, thus why the output from the receiver to the subwoofer is labeled LFE, for Low Frequency Effects. To get full benefit from those effects you need a sub capable of delivering no less than 105dB at 20 Hz, which as I recall is the standard for THX certification in a living room sized listening space. Add 10dB for a full sized theater.

 

[spode master]

Spode, was cool, a touch dark, nice. Fits my mood right now.

30Hz content. I like 30 Hz content. BOB

Heh thanks my first time trying to improv a guitar solo over 7 time. Keep thinking someday I'll actually turn it into a real song.

:1234512 1234123: ad nauseam

 

[greenboy]

Add 10dB for a full sized theater.

Which as a simple comparative exercise means that (if you were using speakers capable of it and no driver power compression) that you would need TEN times as much wattage, for those who have little understanding of what 10 dB can represent.

 

[spode master]

Imagine how incredible the sub set up would need to be to do 115dB @ listening position in a Large cinema. This is closer to 10M not 1 meter so you would need something capable of generating 20Hz @ 135dB 1M.

Mixes for full scale exhibition houses typically ignore anything bellow 35Hz. THX/X-curve/ISO-2969 conservatively shoots for 35HZ, and 30Hz optimistically in large exhibition houses.

I think sub technology has only recently gotten to the point where High SPL 20Hz performance could be possible in a Large exhibition house, but there still are to many room problems to deal with at those frequencies.

 

[svtb15]

I dont go that low.. but i understand people that want to. so +1 to your post.

I think what some of the geniuses that are poo pooing the thought of going that low, it isn't so much of what you hear but what you feel..

the Bag End ELF and cabs are stated to go to 8hz with the processor.. Great for theater and earthquake effects... not to be disrespectful but the Bag End stuff is in more theaters and churches and high quality sound installs than many of the poo poo sayers competitors rigs are.. of course your normal electric bass guitar doesnt go that low with the fundamental.. but if someone wants to go that low i say let them.. you will still get little nuances as low freq thumping and noise of the bass rubbing on your body ect.. lots of woofer excursion but its still there...

Some of us just want to hear everything we're playing - and some of us really do go that low.

 

[svtb15]

i wonder then how when i open Soundforge in my studio..Put my headphones on,,, and create a 60 hz test sine wave. i hear it loud and clear..

then iwill lower the test tone and go lower and lower go to 40hz then 20 hz.. i still hear it fine... without raising the volume...
do i have a dogs hearing?
the 20 hz tone does not disappear its still there in my headphones... yes its low but i hear it fine... and that is pure Sine , and obviously if i change it to sawtooth or triangle or other wave the tone is more obvious due to added harmonics..just wondering


p

Let me clarify. In the vast majority of cases what people think they're hearing in the low end and what they're actually hearing is usually off by about an octave, sometimes two. While one may have a source that goes to 20Hz, and speaker capable of going that low, you just don't hear stuff down there unless it is at very high volume, far higher than even an Infra can produce. I regularly measure 20 Hz output of subs and can attest that even at 105dB at a range of 3 feet a 20Hz tone is barely audible.