Fitzmaurice Subs for low F#

[Kindness]

it's far far more likely that that FEEL you like is actually the feel of 60-100Hz

Which, like you noted above, is far deeper sounding than most people appreciate.

 

[greenboy]

With bass cab manufacturers blithely tossing around 28 and 30 Hz LF response in their marketing materials for ages I think its safe to assume that most bass players are an octave or more off in correlating response with figures.

 

[Red Planet]

I think my doggy can hear that stuff but I can't.

He especially likes the Vocal range though.

 

[rbonner]

This is pretty interesting. I was mulling around and found an ad for a pair of BFM Titan 48's. I blipped the guy. I hadn't met him as he's from a neighboring town. I said who built these things? Turns out is it a friend of mine of 20 years, I laughed.

These guys all know my wife and we've been getting invited for years to go see their band. So I will probably show up at their practice session to have a look see.

SO BILL, these T48's they have EWI 15" in them, can I get something to really roar in these? Some super long throw, mega sub drivers? Get about 130DB at 30?

BOB

 

[Red Planet]

Funny back eons ago I used an 18 folded horn Cerwin Vega Cab. That thing would thump but if I didnt have something on top of it it would leave the stage.

 

[rbonner]

Red, that's what chicks are for.

 

[knuckle_head]

Great to have potshots coming at us when we are actually low tuners who have great interest in using and building equipment that reproduces frequencies lower than bass cab manufacturers are providing. Makes you feel like someone is almost paying attention ; }

 

[Red Planet]

Red, that's what chicks are for.

Ahhhhh.

 

[svtb15]

Sorry that you took my using the word ART as condescending... It wasn't meant to be that at all.
If i wanted to be condescending . .i would not go about it so nicely. .in fact it would have been very clear and direct .

That said.
In the late 70s (77 79) I used a Clair Bros S4 cab with a pair of Crown PSA2 amps to power it... I have no idea what the spec were but the cab went deep... the Clair S4 was a 4 way all in one box ported 2x18 front mounted , 4x10. dual 2 inch compression divers on a single throat jbl lens and a pair of bullets.. it was a 4 way box..

The cabs in the photo were not my cabs.. i did not take photos of my gear back then and mine had the two 2 incn compression drivers on a 2 to 1 joinener onto 1 larger lens for closer hi freq monitoring.. It was a mini PA... not so mini though..
but if you have gone to an arena show in the past 30 years you have most likely heard the S4s in action. I used to see 16 per sideup to 20 per side back then supplemented with their sub cabs on the floor..
I was at a show in the UK years ago and they had 180 boxes for a stadium show... there was some bass happening!
I got mine after seeing Greg Lake of ELP way back... Now i see line arrays and lots of Meyer rigs at shows I do.

I later went to a custom AFB Audio fabricators dual 18 Scoop cab powered ny one PSA2 and a 4 x10 jbl crossed over powered by a BGW 750, that rig had more lows than anything i have heard since...
Gave all that stuff up and now only use two 1x12s and IEMs...

As far as boosting 30hz on my small rig. .all i have now is either presonus parametric EQ that can get fairly narrow Q. or the thunderfunk EQ which has a semi para EQ so the Q is most likely wider... And the Presonus does a pretty good job i think....

svtb15,

If you had paid attention to fairly recent threads on this subject matter you would have seen that some of us who are outlining the very real issues confronting us, well, some of us have actually built our own low frequency designs, have had Servodriven systems and ELF/INFRA, and really don't need to hear about "art" in such a condescending fashion - we too love playing basses and other instruments and listening to music, you realize? Also you are imagining that there are two factions here. Until you showed, probably not.



Realize that your 30 Hz slider or knob has a wide enough Q that when being boosted enough, is going to affect frequencies significantly higher without actually providing much if any acoustic output in the 30 Hz region. And again, your direct radiator cabs are making harmonic distortion in the 60, 90, 120 etc regions.



Well, why do you think we like LF stuff? ... Honestly, you're preaching to the choir.

 

[spode master]

Sorry that you took my using the word ART as condescending... It wasn't meant to be that at all.
If i wanted to be condescending . .i would not go about it so nicely. .in fact it would have been very clear and direct .

That said.
In the late 70s (77 79) I used a Clair Bros S4 cab with a pair of Crown PSA2 amps to power it... I have no idea what the spec were but the cab went deep... the Clair S4 was a 4 way all in one box ported 2x18 front mounted , 4x10. dual 2 inch compression divers on a single throat jbl lens and a pair of bullets.. it was a 4 way box..

The cabs in the photo were not my cabs.. i did not take photos of my gear back then and mine had the two 2 incn compression drivers on a 2 to 1 joinener onto 1 larger lens for closer hi freq monitoring.. It was a mini PA... not so mini though..
but if you have gone to an arena show in the past 30 years you have most likely heard the S4s in action. I used to see 16 per sideup to 20 per side back then supplemented with their sub cabs on the floor..
I was at a show in the UK years ago and they had 180 boxes for a stadium show... there was some bass happening!
I got mine after seeing Greg Lake of ELP way back... Now i see line arrays and lots of Meyer rigs at shows I do.

I later went to a custom AFB Audio fabricators dual 18 Scoop cab powered ny one PSA2 and a 4 x10 jbl crossed over powered by a BGW 750, that rig had more lows than anything i have heard since...
Gave all that stuff up and now only use two 1x12s and IEMs...

As far as boosting 30hz on my small rig. .all i have now is either presonus parametric EQ that can get fairly narrow Q. or the thunderfunk EQ which has a semi para EQ so the Q is most likely wider... And the Presonus does a pretty good job i think....

Wow I can't imagine how bad the polar response of an array of those things would be.

The HF is already beyond doomed.

An array of PA speakers that have tons of self interference interfering with each other.

That was before most speaker manufactures actually sweated stuff like good polar response. They sure made some crazy stuff in the 70's.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Wow I can't imagine how bad the polar response of an array of those things would be.

The HF is already beyond doomed.

An array of PA speakers that have tons of self interference interfering with each other.

That was before most speaker manufactures actually sweated stuff like good polar response. They sure made some crazy stuff in the 70's.

The only factor that made them unusable in a line array was the over/under placement of the tweeters and super tweeters. Had those been in adjacent vertical lines they could have vertically arrayed the S4. What's odd is that they knew enough to place each set of elements vertical, but messed up on that final detail in those very frequencies where that detail is most critical. A pair of mirror imaged S4s, as seen in the photo, could have been stacked two high with the top cab upside down, the super tweeters adjacent, and would have worked very well, but there was no way to use more than two per side without serious combing issues.

 

[rbonner]

Wow I can't imagine how bad the polar response of an array of those things would be. The HF is already beyond doomed. An array of PA speakers that have tons of self interference interfering with each other. That was before most speaker manufactures actually sweated stuff like good polar response. They sure made some crazy stuff in the 70's.

Not just the 70's Spode. I started doing research on the Clair Brothers S4 after it got mentioned here. There's about 100 of them up for sale out on the internet right now, from just a couple companies. About 3K each.

A press release of Mariah Carey from 2000 listed her PA system for the tour as 72 Clair S4 cabs. Those guys sure had a booming business back then.... Obviously they are still in business, but they have a bit more competition.

SO think about it, These guys had like a 25+ year run on popularity. Time to retire and rest on your larels.

BOB

 

[svtb15]

I did a big no non... I was about 20 YO so what did i know.. but i ran it with the 18s on the bottom most of the time.. The dual Hi mid horns on mine had dual 2 inch drivers attached to a single jbl slant fin lens...... It was a very clean system for stage monitor.. it weighed about 400 pounds i think... it was deep in dimension too...
very clean sounding for bass guitar 20 feet distance..

I have actually seen a few different HI and Super HI configurations on the S4.
Not only did mine have a lens since i used it on its side but mine had the Silver jbl bullet tweets not the slotted as shown in the photos.

I would see them fly these things (S4) years ago... it is old PA technology to today s standards.. but it was a step above the Altec A7 cabs and other MSI cabs..

Tycho had a nice box they made that was used alot by guys like zappa...

I remember then next big thing to come was the Showco Prizm system.. which sounded pretty good and i think is still in use by the Showco/Clair merge..

 

[billfitzmaurice]

SO think about it, These guys had like a 25+ year run on popularity. Time to retire and rest on your larels.

BOB

Clair switched to line array, as has every major and most minor pro-touring sound operator. That's why so many used S4s are for sale. That 2000 tour would have been one of the last with Clair still using the S4. Cluster arrays went from about 75% to 2% of the high end pro-touring market between 2000 and 2004, with that 2% being remote towers and sidefills.

 

[svtb15]

oh i know.. for a while al lyou would see are S4 cabs at shows...
from mariah, to bonjovi, tina turner, u2,paul young, billy joel, rod stewart, police,elton john, i think Live Aide in the 80s was Clair S4s...many many hit makers used them for decades.... The last time i remember seeing an S4 was maybe 2002.
I think the appeal was one box with everything in it...

The Showco Prizm was real nice.. many different box configs though and a science to set the system up.. lots of paper drivers and not so many horns in most boxes.

But lately i have seen many Meyer rigs. they are array style from what i have seen, smaller in size and sound way better and even...and the shows have had HUGE bass.. and clear and defined... HUGE deep bass.. mmmmm..

I dod remeber the S4 at most of these shows didnt have a good clean mid to the point where is i saw an S4 at a show i prepared myself for a not so nice listening experience...
But they were way ahead of what was out at the time.. and i have heard real good shows too. It has to do with the engineer and the way they set them up as Bill said..

I must remember that 88% of concert goers have NO IDEA what comb filtering is and they dont care... They care that they saw their act Live and that they were there and can you hear the words...and was it too loud or not enough.
Only in recent few years have the normal person has gotten it to some degree, but that is because they have been able to experience line arrays at their eagles show and it s like listening at home only with a much better light show.

Not just the 70's Spode. I started doing research on the Clair Brothers S4 after it got mentioned here. There's about 100 of them up for sale out on the internet right now, from just a couple companies. About 3K each.

A press release of Mariah Carey from 2000 listed her PA system for the tour as 72 Clair S4 cabs. Those guys sure had a booming business back then.... Obviously they are still in business, but they have a bit more competition.

SO think about it, These guys had like a 25+ year run on popularity. Time to retire and rest on your larels.

BOB

 

[svtb15]

I know showco and Clair merged.. I wonder if Clair is using the Showco new Prism system.. I worked with the showco guys allot years ago and got to see the proprietary boxes guts... very interesting concept overall... i think it was 1988 that they unveiled the Prism System at the Atlantic Records 40th Anniversary HBO show at Madison Square Garden...im sure they updated it since then if they still use it.
I was at that show and it was cutting edge technology for the time...


iwas at the Clair site.. looks like they did the DNC at the outdoor gig.. huge crowd of a few 10s of thousands... [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Clair switched to line array, as has every major and most minor pro-touring sound operator. That's why so many used S4s are for sale. That 2000 tour would have been one of the last with Clair still using the S4. Cluster arrays went from about 75% to 2% of the high end pro-touring market between 2000 and 2004, with that 2% being remote towers and sidefills.

 

[Solarmist]

This is such an interesting thread like all the previous ones.

Question:
If one turns the bass boost all the way up on a bass guitar - what's happening is the signal being amplified is mainly the lower overtones closer to the fundamental vs if you back off the bass boost to flat or less - the signal being amplified is mainly the upper overtones with no fundamental?

Is this why when one hits low "B" with the bass boost all the way up, and the treble off - you can feel an instant compression in your chest as things shake off the walls from having as much fundamental, and lowest overtones as your system can produce?

... And this why some basses sound way "deeper" than others when hitting the same low "E" on a 4banger? The frequency hasn't changed - just which parts of the signal are being amplified ... right?

Thanks guys - I'm trying to understand this
Special thanks to Bill, Greenboy, and Spode

 

[billfitzmaurice]

This is such an interesting thread like all the previous ones.

Question:
If one turns the bass boost all the way up on a bass guitar - what's happening is the signal being amplified is mainly the lower overtones closer to the fundamental vs if you back off the bass boost to flat or less - the signal being amplified is mainly the upper overtones with no fundamental?

Close, though a shelving tone control operates over a bandwidth of at least two octaves. To accentuate or attenuate mainly the fundamental would take a 31 band EQ, or even better a parametric EQ with adjustable Q. The fundamental to harmonic content varies with every instrument. It's the harmonics that define not only the differences between different basses but between a bass and, for instance, a bassoon or a Souzaphone.

 

[lemur821]

Is this why when one hits low "B" with the bass boost all the way up, and the treble off - you can feel an instant compression in your chest as things shake off the walls from having as much fundamental, and lowest overtones as your system can produce?

Well actually, that kick lies more in the low mids. So yes, it's because you've boosted the lowest harmonics, but no, it's not just more fundamental you're getting.

 

[joelc1319]

haha, and I thought that my BFM Omni 10.5 would sound weak in the normal low E range (let alone a low A!!!)...it did at first but after messing with the EQ on my amp I was able to cut back around 40Hz (fundamental) and boost around 80Hz to taste. They sounded almost IDENTICAL! However, the boosted 80Hz didn't cause my speaker to poop itself (always a good thing).

Bill, this is called "phantom fundamental" or "missing fundamental", correct? I think this is something that everyone should know about...it definitely opens up new possibilities for smaller cabinets by almost "tricking" the audience (and often times oneself) into thinking they are hearing some serious 40Hz bass...when in reality it's an octave above that!