Fitzmaurice Subs for low F#

[billfitzmaurice]

Bill, this is called "phantom fundamental" or "missing fundamental", correct? !

Nope. What you've discovered is what every bass player should know, that the low E isn't defined by the 41 Hz fundamental, it's defined by the 82Hz second harmonic.

 

[JustDavid]

Does anyone have a link or can they post a graphic of a spectrum analysis of a bass' note?

& since I'm asking, any chance to get ones for different strings; tape/flat/round nickel/round steel?

 

[greenboy]

Does anyone have a link or can they post a graphic of a spectrum analysis of a bass' note?

Bass frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs

 

[JustDavid]

Thanks!

 

[newbold]

I thought I'd check back cause I have been toying around with the idea of building an omni 10.5 (or 2) and looking ar the size and cost, have also been thinking about the omni 15 tallboy.

I think that, realistically, a rig with a tallboy omni 15 would work well for an f#. It would probably even work with the c# below that, as it still shows decent signal in the mid twenties.

Playing lows like that, it would be easiest to scoop a lot of mids out and pump the overall volume. These cabs are very sensitive and for the time and money still will save you fat stacks of cash.

No tallboy for me until I get a car. I'll be fine with a couple of 10.5's (even just one, truth be told)

 

[newbold]

I thought I'd check back cause I have been toying around with the idea of building an omni 10.5 (or 2) and looking ar the size and cost, have also been thinking about the omni 15 tallboy.

I think that, realistically, a rig with a tallboy omni 15 would work well for an f#. It would probably even work with the c# below that, as it still shows decent signal in the mid twenties.

Playing lows like that, it would be easiest to scoop a lot of mids out and pump the overall volume. These cabs are very sensitive and for the time and money still will save you fat stacks of cash.

No tallboy for me until I get a car. I'll be fine with a couple of 10.5's (even just one, truth be told)

Speaking of cars, Look into the Auto Tuba, too.
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even if you're dealing with a crossover setup, a build won't be much more than $100.

20hz still rates at 90dB on Bill's Chart.

 

[newbold]

er...considering that you may need to deal with a crossover setup...

 

[bgavin]

The O15 isn't designed for F# and neither is the 3015LF that goes into it.

The 10" BP102 is far closer to an F# driver because it goes down a lot lower. It also has the requisite loss in sensitivity, and large box requirement.

 

[greenboy]

The O15 isn't designed for F# and neither is the 3015LF that goes into it.

Any box/driver that can reproduce 46 Hz at at high levels at parity - regardless of whether that requires some EQ or not - will make a great box for bassists performing with F#0 strings. The 3015LF is a good driver because in the right box (5.25 cf or more) it has enough sensitivity and excursion to do a good 46 Hz at performance levels. A lot of drivers can't do it at such levels, if at all.

A lot of F#0 players are getting by with less but I prefer to not hear the emphasis at the octave-and-fifth 69.37 Hz harmonic, but rather the one where the most energy typically is, the 46.25 Hz harmonic. Sounds much better.

 

[greenboy]

I think that, realistically, a rig with a tallboy omni 15 would work well for an f#. It would probably even work with the c# below that, as it still shows decent signal in the mid twenties.

It probably will, but not because of what you think you see in the mid twenties. Later you mention 20 Hz too but I'll tell you right now that it takes more than 110 dB just to a get a bedroom level down there at 20 to 30 Hz. And not too many cabs/drivers can do that. To actually do it at even a moderate performance level with some of tha cabs that can do it at low listening levels narrows the field to rarified and beyond.

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[zagnut]

Rotary subs?
http://www.rotarywoofer.com/

That's nothing new. A few years back, a car audio company called Phoenix Gold came out with a "rotary" servo motor sub called the Cyclone -
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I remember reading a review in Car Audio & Electronics at the time and recall it putting out something like 120db @ 10Hz. This "sub" has since long been discontinued (unless they've put it back into production, unlikely). They were pricey at the time (anywhere from $700-$1k). I've always wanted to get my hands on a couple for some "experimentation". There's a pair on ebay for around $650 (Blast you bad economy! )

From my car audio experience in the past and getting into playing bass, there truly is nothing like feeling the sound. Hearing it is only half of the equation. Similar to saying, "This spaghetti tastes wonderful!", without the accompanying smell to enhance the flavor it really isn't that great. 40Hz and lower can easily trigger a resonant response in a building causing floors to vibrate with the sound, or even in the person listening for that matter.

 

[bgavin]

The O15 isn't designed for F# and neither is the 3015LF that goes into it.

What part of this is not clear?

F# is 23 Hz, and neither 3015LF nor O15 are designed for 23 Hz. There is no mention of 46 Hz or 2nd harmonic.

 

[bgavin]

...but I'll tell you right now that it takes more than 110 dB just to a get a bedroom level down there at 20 to 30 Hz.

Bill's THT is only -5dB at 25 Hz from a 100 Hz reference point.
I have a pair of 1x15 vented boxes with an F3 of 24 Hz.
Bill's THT and TT as well as my boxes are designed to go that low.

Link to THT and TT Plots

O15 is not designed to go this low.
Fob is 50 Hz, meaning it unloads rapidly below the tuning frequency. This has nothing to do with 2nd harmonic, suitability to task, and so forth.

I would not expose an O15 to an F# instrument without a high pass filter in place to protect the driver.

 

[lemur821]

40Hz and lower can easily trigger a resonant response in a building causing floors to vibrate with the sound, or even in the person listening for that matter.

Of course, so will tones octaves higher.

 

[JimmyM]

From my car audio experience in the past and getting into playing bass, there truly is nothing like feeling the sound. Hearing it is only half of the equation. Similar to saying, "This spaghetti tastes wonderful!", without the accompanying smell to enhance the flavor it really isn't that great. 40Hz and lower can easily trigger a resonant response in a building causing floors to vibrate with the sound, or even in the person listening for that matter.

It can also cause mud in a mix when you slot the bass drum where it usually goes, which for me is up to 60 hz. And it can also cause a distasteful rumble in the bass. I'm big on low end, but I like it to be clear. I know a fair amount of people like those sub-40 hz cabs, but when I use them, they just complicate things for me. YMMV, and it obviously does V

 

[alexclaber]

It can also cause mud in a mix when you slot the bass drum where it usually goes, which for me is up to 60 hz. And it can also cause a distasteful rumble in the bass.

Usually any mud from trying to get big sub 40Hz output is not the result of that frequency content but from the increased harmonic distortion due to the high excursion required and thus the increased energy in the boomy 150Hz region. A cab that can hit the required sub 40Hz SPL at low distortion will not be muddy or boomy (assuming it does the rest of the frequency range justice) - it will however be a lot larger than a cab that cuts off 1/3 octave or 1/2 octave higher.

Alex

 

[JimmyM]

Usually any mud from trying to get big sub 40Hz output is not the result of that frequency content but from the increased harmonic distortion due to the high excursion required and thus the increased energy in the boomy 150Hz region. A cab that can hit the required sub 40Hz SPL at low distortion will not be muddy or boomy (assuming it does the rest of the frequency range justice) - it will however be a lot larger than a cab that cuts off 1/3 octave or 1/2 octave higher.

I'm assuming from what you said, a 410HLF doesn't fit the size requirements

 

[alexclaber]

I'm assuming from what you said, a 410HLF doesn't fit the size requirements

Or the requisite clarity through the midrange.

Alex

 

[greenboy]

What part of this is not clear?

F# is 23 Hz, and neither 3015LF nor O15 are designed for 23 Hz. There is no mention of 46 Hz or 2nd harmonic.

F#0 is NOT 23 Hz. No other note on electric bass is comprised of a single frequency either.

 

[greenboy]

O15 is not designed to go this low.
Fob is 50 Hz, meaning it unloads rapidly below the tuning frequency. This has nothing to do with 2nd harmonic, suitability to task, and so forth.

Maybe you need some actual experience with F#0 ON A BASS. I've played F#0 basses for years. I've played 'em through cabs with higher tunings than that, and ones with way less excursion capability to begin with. Perhaps these designs unload a lot worse than direct radiators? Though I don't see whay they would since at that frequency they pretty much are direct radiators...

Anyway. Since the fundamental seems to be down so many dB compared to where the main brunt of the note's harmonic energy is, the general excursion of the drivers IN THAT REGION seems to regulate how well a cab will work with F#0 tuning more often than not.

I would not expose an O15 to an F# instrument without a high pass filter in place to protect the driver.

That's good practice anyway, regardless.