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Fitzmaurice Subs for low F#

#41
svtb15 said:
I dont go that low.. but i understand people that want to. so +1 to your post.

I think what some of the geniuses that are poo pooing the thought of going that low, it isn't so much of what you hear but what you feel..

the Bag End ELF and cabs are stated to go to 8hz with the processor.. Great for theater and earthquake effects... and the Bag End stuff are in more theaters and churches and high quality sound installs than many of the poo poo sayers competitors rigs are.. of course your nomal electric bass guitar doesnt go that low with the fundemental.. but if someone wants to go that low i say let them.. you wil still get littel nances as low freq thumping and noise of the bass rubbing on your body ect.. lots of woofer excursion but its still there...
Click to expand...

Bag Ends go low, in a very limited way.

Bellow tuning a 12dB per octave Bass boost must be applied (Hence the Dual Integrator). I think the single 18" I think the box is tuned to 95Hz so @ 20Hz your already more than 24dB down. That requires more than 200 X the power to get as loud at 20Hz as it does at 95Hz.

ELF technology has its limitations. To go Low enough loudly you need a lot of the ELF cabinets. And a huge amount of amplifier.

All variations on their ELF/Infra cabinets have those limitations.
 
#42
svtb15 said:
i wonder then how when i open Soundforge in my studio..Put my headphones on,,, and create a 60 hz test sine wave. i hear it loud and clear..

then iwill lower the test tone and go lower and lower go to 40hz then 20 hz.. i still hear it fine... without raising the volume...
do i have a dogs hearing?
the 20 hz tone does not disappear its still there in my headphones... yes its low but i hear it fine... and that is pure Sine , and obviously if i change it to sawtooth or triangle or other wave the tone is more obvious due to added harmonics..just wondering


p
Click to expand...

Sealed headphones tend to have a significant Bass boost. I think due to the fact that you have chamber pressurization.

If your Cans are good 20Hz is not an unreasonable range for them to reproduce. But a majority of headphones especially sealed are far from linear.
 
#43
svtb15 said:
i wonder then how when i open Soundforge in my studio..Put my headphones on,,, and create a 60 hz test sine wave. i hear it loud and clear..

then iwill lower the test tone and go lower and lower go to 40hz then 20 hz.. i still hear it fine... without raising the volume...
Click to expand...

Two main factors here:

1) Headphones. To get SPL at low frequencies in small space does not take much power. It's a lot easier to couple acoustically.

2) Harmonic distortion. As you apply power to cones multiples of the original frequencies are created in the cone output that are not present in the original signal.
 
#46
i understand both comments thank you.
I think that what the LOW Freq lovers are saying is not so much about hearing the super low stuff but having the ability to feel it too...
Maybe in years to come we will. after all look at the original 4x10 fender bassman amp.. with the open back cab and maybe 45 watts.. although they sound good for a certain vintage tone they dont shake the ground. .look what 4x10 do these days. they can shake the room then add another with enough powers to drive them and you can feel the air move in and out of an open beer bottle.

I am not a 16 hz pusher as some may here may be.. i play 5 string mostly and sometimes a 4. .but i do like the way 30hz when boosted feels with the air in the room... my cabs don't even reproduce it well or by your means of scientific data collection if it produces it at all.. but when 30 hz is boosted the speakers move a whole lot more and the walls can move and suddenly the dance floor fills up or the chicks take off their bras:).. and thats all i care about.. to me its not science im thinking about its art form.
 
#47
i understand both comments thank you.
I think what the LOW Freq lovers are saying is not so much about hearing the super low stuff but the having the ability to feel it too...
Maybe in years to come we will. after all look at the original 4x10 fender bassman amp.. with the open back cab and maybe 45 watts.. although they sound good for a certain vintage tone they dont shake the ground. .look what 4x10 do these days. they can shake the room then add another with enough powers to drive them and you can feel the air move in and out of an open beer bottle.

I am not a 16 hz pusher as some may here may be.. i play 5 string mostly and sometimes a 4. .but i do like the way 30hz when boosted feels with the air in the room... my cabs don't even reproduce it well or by your means of scientific data collection if it produces it at all.. but when 30 hz is boosted the speakers move a whole lot more and the walls can move and suddenly the dance floor fills up or the chicks take off their bras:).. and thats all i care about.. to me its not science im thinking about its art form.
 
#48
svtb15 said:
but i do like the way 30hz when boosted feels with the air in the room... my cabs don't even reproduce it well or by your means of scientific data collection if it produces it at all.. but when 30 hz is boosted the speakers move a whole lot more and the walls can move and suddenly the dance floor fills up or the chicks take off their bras:).. and thats all i care about.. to me its not science im thinking about its art form.
Click to expand...

Indeed - and when you're boosting 30Hz what you're actually getting is a whole load of extra 60 and 90Hz action and I doubt you can actually hear the meagre amount of 30Hz under all that. Don't underestimate how big and deep the 50-100Hz region sounds.

Alex
 
#49
svtb15,

If you had paid attention to fairly recent threads on this subject matter you would have seen that some of us who are outlining the very real issues confronting us, well, some of us have actually built our own low frequency designs, have had Servodriven systems and ELF/INFRA, and really don't need to hear about "art" in such a condescending fashion - we too love playing basses and other instruments and listening to music, you realize? Also you are imagining that there are two factions here. Until you showed, probably not.

but when 30 hz is boosted the speakers move a whole lot more and the walls can move
Click to expand...

Realize that your 30 Hz slider or knob has a wide enough Q that when being boosted enough, is going to affect frequencies significantly higher without actually providing much if any acoustic output in the 30 Hz region. And again, your direct radiator cabs are making harmonic distortion in the 60, 90, 120 etc regions.

and suddenly the dance floor fills up or the chicks take off their bras"
Click to expand...

Well, why do you think we like LF stuff? ... Honestly, you're preaching to the choir.
 
#50
....trouser flap, chest thump, ground shake, buttkickers, rockford/fosgate rumble or tremors, etc translate to high SPL peaks between 60 - 100hz. When you boost your 30-40hz EQ slider you are also boosting these nearby frequencies unless you have a very precise and narrow Q. FWIW, most 'bass' knobs centred at 40hz are shelving controls, which typically affect frequencies way up to 200hz when boosted or cut.
 
#51
Actually like Greenboy states, so far there is only one faction here...

The only "Heavy Discussion" is how low can we go; how low should we go? How low is it practical to go; and how and the heck do we do it so it is usable and actually means something?

It may sound like we're loading weapons and squaring off, but so far we're all just techno-longhairs...

SO anyway, I still think I'm going to add subs to get me down to 30Hz Bill I'd been looking at the B&C 21SW150 super power sub drivers. I was thinking 4 cabs and drive them with a Crown I-T8000. And roll them off to the ampeg cabs by 50-75Hz adjustable active crossover so I can tweak depending on how they sound.

The curves I've seen on WinISD are very sharp, and driver cone excursion goes wild on either side of the 30Hz peak.

I also looked at the DANLEY TH-215 and its specs, and the Big JBL super sub 4880A I wonder if they are as peaky as the simple design I was seeing on ISD?

That should get me fundamental for at least B0 and good harmonics. BOB
 
#53
svtb15 said:
the 20 hz tone does not disappear its still there in my headphones... yes its low but i hear it fine... and that is pure Sine , and obviously if i change it to sawtooth or triangle or other wave the tone is more obvious due to added harmonics..just wondering


p
Click to expand...
Even with a pure sine input the headphones create harmonics, which is what you're mainly hearing below 30 Hz or so. The percentage of harmonics created by the phones increases as excursion increases, and excursion increases as frequency decreases. Ergo the lower you go the more harmonics you hear. To a great extent your brain fools you into thinking the harmonics you're hearing are actually the fundamental. This phenomenon is the basis for the BassMaxx processor.
 
#54
+1000
I love LF content.. I like clarity but also like the added Low bass to have the FEEL of a lowrider from a block away with the license plates rattling.

I was commenting where folks say that anything below 60 or 40hz is silly.. I dont think so.. give me more...



greenboy said:
svtb15,




Well, why do you think we like LF stuff? ... Honestly, you're preaching to the choir.
Click to expand...
 
#59
Invariably the fan or this chamber horn come up in such threads:

men%20at%20work22.jpg
 
#60
svtb15 said:
+1000
I love LF content.. I like clarity but also like the added Low bass to have the FEEL of a lowrider from a block away with the license plates rattling.

I was commenting where folks say that anything below 60 or 40hz is silly.. I dont think so.. give me more...
Click to expand...

But we were saying that you aren't hearing anything below there - not because your ears can't but because of the limitations of your amplification coupled with frequency masking and the response of your instrument. So you might think you like the feel of sub 40Hz but it's far far more likely that that FEEL you like is actually the feel of 60-100Hz.

Alex
 

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