Flat wounds.....extra tension?

[micguy]

Stings resonate at a frequency proportional to the square root of (the tension, divided by the linear density of the string). What that means is, if you make the string heavier per inch, you'll need more tension to balance that, and keep the same pitch. A round wound string has gaps between the metal, where there is...air. When you make a string flatwound, the gaps are much smaller - less air means more metal in a given diameter. Metal replacing air means the string is heavier per inch (or centimeter for those not in backwards countries). Hence you need more tension.

The LaBella Low Tension flats (flats with lower tension, which would seem to contradict this) use non-metallic winds as part of their construction - less metal, more lighter stuff (I hear it's plastic), means less linear density, and hence....less tension for a given pitch. So yes, flats usually need more tension, but not always - it depends on the details.

Flat wounds are also usually stiffer (resistance to bending), which adds to the perceived tension when playing, so they often feel more "tense" than they actually are at times - leading to "bridge cable" comments.

 

[Blankandson]

I switch about every two years between flats and rounds. (That's about how long our BLs last) I put on new Rotoround Tape Wounds on my 5-string about a month ago. About 10 days after that I had to adjust the truss rod about 1/8 turn. And that's it. It's settled in nicely and now plays like it is meant to play. I only had to raise the Just-A-Nut 1/2 turn on the high side and 1 full turn on the low side. I think you will really enjoy your bass when the strings finally settle in.

 

[FunkHead]

Sometimes it's just better to take your bass to a pro. It's not just about cranking on the truss rod(Which you should never do!) As stated above, you most certainly should pull the neck in the desired direction and with zero string tension. Then tighten the truss rod to hold it in position. When done properly, there is zero force needed to turn the truss rod nut. But you also need to lower the action for higher tension strings. That reduces the "Outward" pull of the strings on the neck. If done correctly, you will never get to the point where you "Run out of adjustment".
You have crushed the wood under the truss rod nut whether you want to accept/admit it or not.

 

[7dollarbologna]

Do what he's doing but with your hands

 

[Craig Williams]

Sometimes it's just better to take your bass to a pro. It's not just about cranking on the truss rod(Which you should never do!) As stated above, you most certainly should pull the neck in the desired direction and with zero string tension. Then tighten the truss rod to hold it in position. When done properly, there is zero force needed to turn the truss rod nut. But you also need to lower the action for higher tension strings. That reduces the "Outward" pull of the strings on the neck. If done correctly, you will never get to the point where you "Run out of adjustment".
You have crushed the wood under the truss rod nut whether you want to accept/admit it or not.

You have made an awful lot of assumptions there. You can't assume everyone but you is a total idiot as many do on these forums. There was no "cranking" on the truss rod. You have never encountered a stiff truss rod due to age / corrosion whatever? It was no where near chewing into the wood and I have done enough set ups to know when it is getting close to that. I understand the principle of putting manual back bow into the neck but I don't agree it needs to be done every time you make a truss rod adjustment. Pro's here are very limited, and can be very limited back home....good ones that is. Last time I was in a guitar shop I saw a "pro" chip a sizeable chunk of a vintage Gretsch body using his screw driver to lift a PU out of its slot. And a pro shouldn't fumble around with a guitar between his knees putting back pressure on a neck or head. Just my opinion

 

[Craig Williams]

Do what he's doing but with your hands

100% agree, this guy is brilliant. And like you said like he is doing, but with your hands. He is not using his hands. He is using blocks and a clamp as I mentioned earlier. With strings off and no tension on the guitar, unless there is something wrong or the guitar has an ingrained bow set in, there should be no need to put pressure on a neck to make truss adjustments. You would first need to ascertain if the guitar has natural back bow or warp before knowing which way to put pressure on it

 

[Craig Williams]

Guys as I said earlier, appreciate the comments but the truss is working fine. Has plenty of back bow in it after adjustment and is doing what it should. It is just this neck doesn't have the mass to support these strings and I am erring on the side of caution not to tighten it anymore. it's just not worth it to me to put a particular set of strings on it at the risk of damaging something. These Boner bass necks...or this one anyway is very thin, as well as being longer than a standard neck....in fact the thinnest I have seen on a bass. My last precision was as chunky as a baseball bat sliced in half. It is no biggy, I still like the bass its just unfortunate I can't put flats on it, but when the supplier does get stock I will get some low tensions on.

 

[JimmyM]

Guys as I said earlier, appreciate the comments but the truss is working fine. Has plenty of back bow in it after adjustment and is doing what it should. It is just this neck doesn't have the mass to support these strings and I am erring on the side of caution not to tighten it anymore. it's just not worth it to me to put a particular set of strings on it at the risk of damaging something. These Boner bass necks...or this one anyway is very thin, as well as being longer than a standard neck....in fact the thinnest I have seen on a bass. My last precision was as chunky as a baseball bat sliced in half. It is no biggy, I still like the bass its just unfortunate I can't put flats on it, but when the supplier does get stock I will get some low tensions on.

I still think you'll be fine. Anyway, I don't know how the low tension LaBellas are, but Dunlop flats are low tension and sound awesomely thuddy when they go dead.

 

[FunkHead]

You have made an awful lot of assumptions there. You can't assume everyone but you is a total idiot as many do on these forums. There was no "cranking" on the truss rod. You have never encountered a stiff truss rod due to age / corrosion whatever? It was no where near chewing into the wood and I have done enough set ups to know when it is getting close to that. I understand the principle of putting manual back bow into the neck but I don't agree it needs to be done every time you make a truss rod adjustment. Pro's here are very limited, and can be very limited back home....good ones that is. Last time I was in a guitar shop I saw a "pro" chip a sizeable chunk of a vintage Gretsch body using his screw driver to lift a PU out of its slot. And a pro shouldn't fumble around with a guitar between his knees putting back pressure on a neck or head. Just my opinion

No assumption made here. These are your exact words:
"Was getting stiff though as if coming to the end of its adjustment. (I adjusted the truss with no string tension). Maybe has another tightening turn left in it. Definitely not broken though and its a USA Fender FWIW. I hear you re giving a day to settle though. Impatience normally gets the better of me there"

 

[Craig Williams]

No assumption made here. These are your exact words:
"Was getting stiff though as if coming to the end of its adjustment. (I adjusted the truss with no string tension). Maybe has another tightening turn left in it. Definitely not broken though and its a USA Fender FWIW. I hear you re giving a day to settle though. Impatience normally gets the better of me there"

Bro....I don't want to have a smarty pants competition with you, but if you want to quote statements "getting stiff as if coming to the end of adjustment" does not equate to or warrant a comment like "You have crushed the wood under the truss rod nut whether you want to accept/admit it or not". Or "clanking" the truss rod. There is a big difference between the two. It's arrogant, and kinda rude for you too assume you know for a fact something has happened where another party was present and you weren't .....and made a ton of assumptions and exaggerations, I can assume only to make yourself appear to be the "guru". I am very light handed on the hex key when making adjustments.

 

[Craig Williams]

Fragile ego alert.

Ahhh stereotypical on forums. Nearly every post. The person who jumps in with the arrogant throw away one liners, and the cheer squad that jumps in. Guess which one you are

No fragile egos here. I just wont be told something that happened, that didn't, by somebody that doesn't know or wasn't present. Fair enough? I prefer to be civil and cheerful

 

[TomB]

Labella FL's (mentioned above) are considerably lower tension than the FS's you tried, though not as low as LT's. I've found they are about on a par with the Dunlops in this regard.

 

[Craig Williams]

I really love this bass and love the super thin neck profile. Downside of that obviously the neck a little more flexible than normal but its lovely to play. Shame I can't use the flat wounds I have now but will be great to get a low tension set. The rounds sound good for now

 

[BlackVincent52]

Ahhh stereotypical on forums. Nearly every post. The person who jumps in with the arrogant throw away one liners, and the cheer squad that jumps in. Guess which one you are

No fragile egos here. I just wont be told something that happened, that didn't, by somebody that doesn't know or wasn't present. Fair enough? I prefer to be civil and cheerful

Stereotypical? How about the guy that posts a thread asking for help or information and then gets defensive and lashes out at people that don't tell him exactly what he wants to hear?

 

[Craig Williams]

Stereotypical? How about the guy that posts a thread asking for help or information and then gets defensive and lashes out at people that don't tell him exactly what he wants to hear?

That's not what happened at all. I am always polite and non personal.....until I encounter rudeness....unlike yourself. No need for it. Lashed out? Another ridiculous exaggeration. I simply called it for what it was. If you think this is your big moment and want to look the hero you will have to bring more than that to the table. No point of getting into a battle of wits if you are fighting unarmed. Your comment had nothing to do with the thread. Just another negative sniper that thought he smelt blood and would move in to put the boot in. Move along

 

[BlackVincent52]

That's not what happened at all. I am always polite and non personal.....until I encounter rudeness....unlike yourself. No need for it. Lashed out? Another ridiculous exaggeration. I simply called it for what it was. If you think this is your big moment and want to look the hero you will have to bring more than that to the table. No point of getting into a battle of wits if you are fighting unarmed. Your comment had nothing to do with the thread. Just another negative sniper that thought he smelt blood and would move in to put the boot in. Move along

Wow... a hit dog will holler.

 

[RudyTardy]

Hey Craig. I have a '59 CS with a massive baseball bat neck. I encountered the exact same problem that you are having when I put flats on it. I reached the end of comfortable adjustment and still had relief of .014" or so, which for me is not acceptable. After going to the best techs here in LA (all Fender authorized), it was deemed the extra washer was the viable, and Fender recommended, fix. Was I happy about this? Hell no. But I accepted it and the bass works fine with flats on it now. I greased up the nut, added the washer, and I have a more compliant truss rod now. When it gets dry and the neck starts to bow, I take it off and bend it over my knee when I tighten it. Not ideal by any stretch, but it works.

 

[Craig Williams]

Wow... a hit dog will holler.

You are on fire with the wise cracks bro lol. I surrender to you

 

[Craig Williams]

Hey Craig. I have a '59 CS with a massive baseball bat neck. I encountered the exact same problem that you are having when I put flats on it. I reached the end of comfortable adjustment and still had relief of .014" or so, which for me is not acceptable. After going to the best techs here in LA (all Fender authorized), it was deemed the extra washer was the viable, and Fender recommended, fix. Was I happy about this? Hell no. But I accepted it and the bass works fine with flats on it now. I greased up the nut, added the washer, and I have a more compliant truss rod now. When it gets dry and the neck starts to bow, I take it off and bend it over my knee when I tighten it. Not ideal by any stretch, but it works.

Ahhhhh great man. Yeah all necks seem to have an attitude and a mind all of their own. The washer thing not an option for me as I have the 90s style Biflex system where you put the hex key in the small hole at the head. No where to put a washer. I too like a very low action. Funnily enough usually Fender guitars / Basses.....even the Japanese ones seem to be the most difficult of all guitars to achieve this. Some of the stuff out of China now is unbelievably good. Squier Classic vibe for example seem to have some of the most perfect, accurate easy to set up necks as do Epis. Old 80's Yamaha / Fernandes / Ibanez stuff very good too. I have ordered Flat wound low tension though just now. Apparently they are only 100's in La Bella but should work well for now.

 

[RudyTardy]

Ahhhhh great man. Yeah all necks seem to have an attitude and a mind all of their own. The washer thing not an option for me as I have the 90s style Biflex system where you put the hex key in the small hole at the head. No where to put a washer. I too like a very low action. Funnily enough usually Fender guitars / Basses.....even the Japanese ones seem to be the most difficult of all guitars to achieve this. Some of the stuff out of China now is unbelievably good. Squier Classic vibe for example seem to have some of the most perfect, accurate easy to set up necks as do Epis. Old 80's Yamaha / Fernandes / Ibanez stuff very good too. I have ordered Flat wound low tension though just now. Apparently they are only 100's in La Bella but should work well for now.

Oh damn I didn't consider the headstock hex. That's a tough one. If it's any consolation, I ended up with the La Bella 760FX (39-96) to make my life easier. Same tone as the other Deep Talkin' but I just have to lighten up my plucking hand a bit, but not much. They feel like 40-100 rounds as far as tension goes. The LTFs sound a bit different in the mids and didn't play nice with low action on this particular neck... bit buzzy and the E would not intonate as precisely as I needed for recording. They were great on my Lakland Glaub with the flatter radius and smaller fretwire, however. Trial and error.

And you're totally right about Fender necks behaving this way. I have no idea what it is, but my other basses take low relief like a champ (Sadowsky, Lakland, Maghini, Stingray).