He seems to switch around quite a bit (basses, amps, pickups, etc.). I did like his tone quite a bit with the passive Barts he had in his bass for a while (at least I think that is what they were). However, case in point, lot's of different flavors of tones and voicings in the Fodera line-up.
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Fodera Club Part II
- Thread starter Mark Wilson
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He seems to switch around quite a bit (basses, amps, pickups, etc.). I did like his tone quite a bit with the passive Barts he had in his bass for a while (at least I think that is what they were). However, case in point, lot's of different flavors of tones and voicings in the Fodera line-up.
Jason
For what its worth, here are my thoughts, as a buyer of "high end" basses on Fodera. Fodera was, probably in conjunction with Carl Thompson, the first boutique bass brand I ever really was aware of. In some sense, it still holds a place in my mind when it comes to the "holy grail" of boutique basses. However, perception is everything and I think the last few years have seen the brand damaged by some perception issues around:
1. Customer service;
2. Attention to detail; and
3. Business practices.
Part of my "wants" a Fodera in my (small) collection. However, the internet has made me a discerning buyer. I am not going to buy a Fodera or a Carl Thompson becuase they are seen as the Rolls Royce, when I know that you can get an S-Class for half the price with just as amazing build quality and features. I am sure that there are a lot of buyers out there that want or need the Rolls and that's why both Fodera and Rolls have waiting lists.
However, for someone like me who could buy a Fodera if they wanted, lets call this person the "Jungian Buyer", its not simply enough for a brand to be thought of traditionally as "the best", its got to continually prove itself to be the best and deserving of the price it charges. Ultimately its an economic decision as to what Fodera charges for its products and, with the waiting lists it has, maybe an increase is in order. However, if you want to attract the Jungian buyer, I can guarantee that the price charged also has to be justified in almost perfect customer service and almost perfect build quality from bass to bass. These are things that I think keep me away from the Fodera brand. I can't, at present, wait 2 years for a bass that may have quality issues. I need a guarantee that the bass I get will be finished perfectly for the kind of money and time investment. There are brands out there where you can all buy guarantee that and they ahve a reputation for it. FOdera, IMO, neesd to foster that reputation. It needs to convince the Jungian buyer that there is now no change a bass will leave the shop with a QC issue. That if the Jungian buyer calls up he will get someone on teh phone that will deal with his query straight away. That his email will be answered promptly etc.
FInally business practices, I recall a thread some time ago about Fodera buying a bass of a seller second ahnd and then turning it for a profit. The details escape me, but that kind of thing will kill a makers reputation. I think these sort of things need to be addressed openly and honestly and procedures put in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Likewise scheduling issues which I know you are dealing with - its simply unacceptable for a customer waiting 2+ years to see another persons bass put in front of theirs without explanation.
Anyway, that's my 2c. I wish you the best of luck and maybe, one day, you will attract more of the Jungian buyers to the Fodera stable.
For what its worth, here are my thoughts, as a buyer of "high end" basses on Fodera. Fodera was, probably in conjunction with Carl Thompson, the first boutique bass brand I ever really was aware of. In some sense, it still holds a place in my mind when it comes to the "holy grail" of boutique basses. However, perception is everything and I think the last few years have seen the brand damaged by some perception issues around:
1. Customer service;
2. Attention to detail; and
3. Business practices.
Part of my "wants" a Fodera in my (small) collection. However, the internet has made me a discerning buyer. I am not going to buy a Fodera or a Carl Thompson becuase they are seen as the Rolls Royce, when I know that you can get an S-Class for half the price with just as amazing build quality and features. I am sure that there are a lot of buyers out there that want or need the Rolls and that's why both Fodera and Rolls have waiting lists.
However, for someone like me who could buy a Fodera if they wanted, lets call this person the "Jungian Buyer", its not simply enough for a brand to be thought of traditionally as "the best", its got to continually prove itself to be the best and deserving of the price it charges. Ultimately its an economic decision as to what Fodera charges for its products and, with the waiting lists it has, maybe an increase is in order. However, if you want to attract the Jungian buyer, I can guarantee that the price charged also has to be justified in almost perfect customer service and almost perfect build quality from bass to bass. These are things that I think keep me away from the Fodera brand. I can't, at present, wait 2 years for a bass that may have quality issues. I need a guarantee that the bass I get will be finished perfectly for the kind of money and time investment. There are brands out there where you can all buy guarantee that and they ahve a reputation for it. FOdera, IMO, neesd to foster that reputation. It needs to convince the Jungian buyer that there is now no change a bass will leave the shop with a QC issue. That if the Jungian buyer calls up he will get someone on teh phone that will deal with his query straight away. That his email will be answered promptly etc.
FInally business practices, I recall a thread some time ago about Fodera buying a bass of a seller second ahnd and then turning it for a profit. The details escape me, but that kind of thing will kill a makers reputation. I think these sort of things need to be addressed openly and honestly and procedures put in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Likewise scheduling issues which I know you are dealing with - its simply unacceptable for a customer waiting 2+ years to see another persons bass put in front of theirs without explanation.
Anyway, that's my 2c. I wish you the best of luck and maybe, one day, you will attract more of the Jungian buyers to the Fodera stable.
Just Thumpin'
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- Mar 7, 2008
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I completely agree that everything you mention needs to be handled 100% right (or darn close to it) ALL of the time. Nothing you mentioned is not being addressed -- I promise and as an owner I have put a lot of my Team's money and time behind solving these issues. I believe there has already been a dramatic improvement in our ability to address Customer Service Issues. Response time for Customer inquiries is running less than 24 hours...
Getting the backlog down below 2 years is going to take a lot longer, but at least now customers are getting real dates based on logically laid out and organized schedules. We are a work in progress, but a very good one at that.
As for build quality...if any customer orders a bass and they are not COMPLETELY satisfied (as they should be at our price point), they can contact me directly at:
[email protected]
We WILL resolve the issue. 100%. No questions. No hedging.
Thanks for taking the time to give us your valuable input.
Kindest regards,
Jason
Getting the backlog down below 2 years is going to take a lot longer, but at least now customers are getting real dates based on logically laid out and organized schedules. We are a work in progress, but a very good one at that.
As for build quality...if any customer orders a bass and they are not COMPLETELY satisfied (as they should be at our price point), they can contact me directly at:
[email protected]
We WILL resolve the issue. 100%. No questions. No hedging.
Thanks for taking the time to give us your valuable input.
Kindest regards,
Jason
They are lucky to have you... they need it, as nice as the guys at Fodera are, I have met Vinny and Joey and I believe they are totally standup and honest and sincerely nice guys, as well I have owned 3 Fodera's in the past.
I wish I would have known about the changes before I cancelled my order, there were other circumstances leading up to my cancellation, but this move might have made me "stay onboard", Maybe...
It feels like they literally alienate there own customers by providing ZERO feedback as to when or even where your bass is in line, I could never get a simple answer to any question through my dealer after waiting 15 months.... Again they need you and I wish you much luck!
Personally I would consider buying a used Fodera in the future, but I will NEVER go through that type of wait again with any builder.
- Tom
I have owned alot of custom basses over the years, and I've learned alot about dealing with smaller shops. First off, I will never chase a builder around. I don't care a thing about their reputation, if someone doesn't return my emails or phone calls within a day or 2, I won't work with them. There are alot of details that need to be communicated during the planning phase, and I don't want to wait a week or more to finalize each little nuance. With that said, I've emailed Fodera a few times over the years, and I've felt that the response time was great.
As to the options and upgrades---can a customer supply some of their own materials? I've sourced lumber a few times and have found some nice boards out there for good prices. I'm sure that the guys in the shop don't have time to search around for deals on Brazilian rosewood, but if it could save a few grand off the price, I wouldn't mind spending a few hours searching.....Also, small things like pickup covers and ramps, I could find elsewhere.....
You can source your own lumber, but it has to be of the right quality, and they'll charge you to "work" the wood provided. Essentially, think of it as a corking charge for bringing your own wine to a restaurant...just that the corking charge is $750.
I think it's a perfectly fair thing for them to charge to deal with wood they didn't select themselves (and to deem it worthy/unworthy), and I'd expect it to potentially add length to the waiting time as you have to wait for it to dry properly, but it's still a pretty steep charge. It saves money, but not huge amounts when all is said and done.
I think it's a perfectly fair thing for them to charge to deal with wood they didn't select themselves (and to deem it worthy/unworthy), and I'd expect it to potentially add length to the waiting time as you have to wait for it to dry properly, but it's still a pretty steep charge. It saves money, but not huge amounts when all is said and done.
Well, I don't have an issue with them charging whatever they want. That is ultimately their decision, but if they're charging $1300 for a Brazilian rosewood board and $900 for dual coil pickups with covers, then I can't justify having Fodera build my next bass.
I hesitated to post because I figured everyone would just assume I was ragging on Fodera because they are expensive. I've owned 2. I am a potential customer....albiet, not for a few years, but who knows what tommorow holds.
Honestly, there is someone now in the company who is lending us his ear, and I think it might be helpful to him to hear some reasons why people chose to deal with a different company.
To me, $6000, I would consider. Again, probably not today or even this year, but I would consider it. $10,500, I would not.
btw, I know a guy who has sold Brazilian rosewood to everyone....Fodera included. So, I know where to get the same wood.
Just for reference, can anyone give me an appreciation of how much a Fodera cost 15 years ago in today's value?
- Apr 23, 2003
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Well, the US Inflation statistics state a 74.2% increase in the last 20 years. Using that figure, a $2500 item in 1989 would cost $4354.21 today, completely based on INFLATION on consumer prices. (Sorry, 15 years : $2500 in 1994 would be $3643.20 today, an inflation rate of 45.7%)
Aloha, Garey
Aloha, Garey
Ken Smith and Fodera pricing was pretty similar back then (I considered both brands in the mid 80's. A basic neck through Smith retails for between $4,000 and $5,000 today (the range was around $2,500 to 3,500 or so back around the mid to late 80's). The similarly spec'd Fodera Elites are now around $8,000 to $10,000, so their price increase is about double the Smiths over that period, as close as I can determine.
Edit: Another data point. I just checked my records. For my Fodera Emperor Elite with 5a solid top, 5 piece neck, wood pickup covers, I paid $4,970 in 1999. In checking the price list, that bass would be around $9,500 selling price today... so just about a 30% increase from 89 to 99 and a full doubling in price from 99 to 2009. Whew!
The great news for those that have older ones like I had, is that I sold it for a touch over $5,000 a couple of years ago. Since it was fully depreciated (i.e., no capital gains taxes on the sale), I was basically paid about $1,500 to play that bass for 8 years. You have to love it when that happens!
why not indian rosewood. Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised if anyone could find a real tonal difference between a Brazilian board and an Indian one. sure cosmetics I know, but tonal difference? Hell people usually can't tell difference in tone between rosewood and maple, let alone 2 very similar species of rosewood.
The only thing that explains the price is that brazilian rosewood is near extinct. Only rarity makes up for its price, nothing else much.
Bryan R. Tyler
TalkBass: Usurping My Practice Time Since 2002
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- May 3, 2002
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Rarity is the main reason for the markup in price for nearly every item in the world.
I don't want to totally dismiss your point of view but I think most would agree that those who share your view probably have very little interest in owning a Fodera.
Several people have mentioned this idea of providing their own wood to save money. But when a really good luthier makes a guitar, HE picks out the woods that HE believes will create the look and the sound that is desired for that guitar. If you select the piece of wood yourself, lacking the experience of the luthier, you MAY get the look you want, but will you get the sound? And if you don't have a lot of experience as a luthier, you probably won't get the look you wanted, either.
Basically, if saving money is your main concern, you probably can't afford a fully custom made instrument by any top luthier.
One may not have the experience of a luthier but more often than not the people selling the wood know a thing or two about their "product" and may well be able to guide a customer and give advice where needed.
I don't think it's such a huge deal.
I find it quite an interesting thing to source ones own timber.
I have done it once and it was fun, informative and worked out very well.
But at the end it's just more convenient to have the maker use what they deem best, and I personally would just not go to one whose prices I don't accept in the first place.
I don't think it's such a huge deal.
I find it quite an interesting thing to source ones own timber.
I have done it once and it was fun, informative and worked out very well.
But at the end it's just more convenient to have the maker use what they deem best, and I personally would just not go to one whose prices I don't accept in the first place.
I agree my opinion was phrased to understand like you did but, I have a HUGE interest in owning a Fodera. I love all types of figured top woods and my ONLY problem in wood selection is that I never understood why people would pay up to 1000$ extra for a dalgebria board when the difference visually is minimal and sonically it is minimal too as well as the feel. It is the only wood people pay extra that I cannot seem to understand why. I would pay 1000$ for a top grade wood top since it makes a big difference cosmetically (like easy to see difference). Think the difference between a AAA flamed maple top at 400$ and a AAAAA flamed maple top at 1000$, the difference is VERY easy to see. Or another example, the difference between a maple board and a birdseye maple board: cosmetically very different. I could hardly tell the difference between a nice piece of indian rosewood and brazilian rosewood visually and I consider myself as someone who knows wood species a lot.
Yeah, but we have to consider why it's rare. See where I'm going with this.......
Saving money isn't the goal. The goal is to pay a fair price for the options/upgrades. I've seen the Brazilian rosewood that another 'top luthier' is using (name withheld to leave him out of it) and it is FANTASTIC....rich, chocolatey and super thick. The best I've seen. His upcharge is $250. That is acceptable to me. $1300 is not. It isn't a matter of not knowing about lumber. I developed a great relationship with two 'wood guys.' Their business is finding great wood. (They are pretty creepy about it actually.
) I trust their opinion, and I trust that they are going to give me a fair price. I must say that my intent was never to publicly rag on Fodera. I'm only responding to other posts while trying to respect the work and reputation of great builders. It is not my business what they charge, but I DO feel that I have a right to question their prices. Also, there is someone with a vested interest in Fodera listening to my concerns. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is put off by the upgrade pricing. I apologize if I sound like I'm talking bad about the company.
I don't think there is anything wrong with what you've said. I don't think there is anyone could argue that Fodera's wood prices in any way reflect the cost of the wood or the difficulty in working it- there is no chance that you'll find a piece of wood for a top that actually costs $2000. That's the charge for macassar ebony. Macassar ebony is cheap. Hard to find in that width without checks, but not very expensive.
It's just that the can. I think you are right to say that you'd rather not pay it, regardless of the cost of the instrument.
Say what you will about the luthier picking the right sounding pieces and all that, but as I've (and others) have found out about violin makers, etc, most of their intuition about what sounds good doesn't stack up scientifically (but this is another topic). In reality, it's a solidbody and it's electric, with sound picked up through some coils of wire. Minute differences in the tone between a few pieces of rosewood ain't going to be much in the end.
It's just that the can. I think you are right to say that you'd rather not pay it, regardless of the cost of the instrument.
Say what you will about the luthier picking the right sounding pieces and all that, but as I've (and others) have found out about violin makers, etc, most of their intuition about what sounds good doesn't stack up scientifically (but this is another topic). In reality, it's a solidbody and it's electric, with sound picked up through some coils of wire. Minute differences in the tone between a few pieces of rosewood ain't going to be much in the end.
I understand your point better now. I will admit I have an Alleva-Coppolo with a true brazillian board (Dalbergia) and I love it. It sounds and feels different then my other basses one with an Indian board and another with old Growth Honduran. The difference between these is distinct to me, I wouldn't go nuts debating the differences accept to say I do enjoy the variety. If I was going to have a bass built with a rosewood board (which I'm not) I'd pay an extra $1000 for a DN board...
When I was looking into Foderas a few years ago the Brazilian Rosewood that I was considering was aged almost 100 years. I am not sure what is currently being offered by Fodera, but when I was shopping the age of the wood was a significant factor in justifing the pricing.
FWIW,
Jim
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