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Fodera Club Part V

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#521
climb said:
Don't you think that Metros have devalued NYC Sadowsky's? I think they have in many respects, and IMO a Metro and a Sadowsky NYC are much more similar to one another than a custom Fodera and a Fodera NYC. Why do you think the Metro was properly executed? It still baffles me that Metros can have blocks/binding but Sadowsky NYCs can't.
Click to expand...

A bit off topic, but IMO, no. Roger has done an amazing job, keeping the distribution of the Metro's pretty much separate, and providing enough differentiation (options, body routing, neck design, separate shop location in a different country, etc., etc.) to keep the NYC's 'special', so that both lines are selling like crazy. He also stayed totally away from the 'low end' of the market.. the Metro's are priced in the mid range of the boutique market, and at the high end of the widely distrituted brands.

He is, IMO, the textbook case of doing this right from a marketing and new product perspective (whether you like the product or not is a bit of a separate issue). The Metro and NYC lines do blur a bit on TB, since we all post about this so much, but in the general marketplace, the lines are well separated. PERFECT execution to me. This is made clear by the never ending argument between Metro owners (my Metro is just as good as the NYC's) and the NYC owners (the NYC's are worth every penny). This is branding and product line differentiation at its absolute finest!

And, you can now get blocks on any NYC bass:bassist:.

The Lakland thing was VERY interesting. The Skyline brand kind of decimated the USA product line, but if you read that Fortune magazine interview with Dan quite a while back, that is exactly what he wanted to do. They were making virtually no money on the USA models, so he purposely had the USA and Skylines put in the same distribution network (i.e., hanging side by side at music stores), and promoted the fact that the Skylines were 'just as good' as the USA models (which I don't really believe by the way). The margins on the Skylines (according to Dan) were significantly higher than the USA models, so it was his strategy to 'bring up' the reputation of the Skylines at the expense of the 'boutique' reputation of the USA models.

Edit: Jason... sorry for the OT, but hopefully our discussion gives you some free marketing consulting regarding the overall branding of the NYC, which has quite a bit to do with the headstock issue on the 'lower end' sub brand!
 
#522
Jason,
Here is my two cents on this subject...

I'd like to see a mock up of what that would look like. I'm having a hard time visualizing it.

With that said though I think would be a good idea to change it to the traditional Fodera headstock. I'm imagining that it would make them look similar to the Monarchs/Emperors since the body style is similar.

Overall, having all of your line with the same headstocks will give the entire line of products a continuity across the board. The Fodera headstock is unique and identifiable. It's part of the signature of the brand. I always felt that the headstock difference on the NYC series separated them from the rest of the instruments. It kind of says to the consumer "Hi I'm a second cousin of the "real" Fodera brand" and in some ways probably deters consumers from buying them thinking that they are just second hand cheap knock offs made in some "South Asian Sweat shop" for those that can't afford a "real" one.

Now there are pluses and minus' from doing this at a marketing level and that decision is up to you guys as to what/where you want to go with it.

However, I'm imagining that you would sell more with the traditional Fodera headstock (although this is a gut reaction) than the current style.

Personally, I miss having the option to buy the Monarch Bolt-ons with the 2 band preamp that were available a while ago (I forget what that line was called...). Maybe by replacing the headstock you might recapture some of that market?

But what the heck do I know? Ha!

All the best and good grooves!
 
#523
climb said:
Don't you think that Metros have devalued NYC Sadowsky's? I think they have in many respects, and IMO a Metro and a Sadowsky NYC are much more similar to one another than a custom Fodera and a Fodera NYC. Why do you think the Metro was properly executed? It still baffles me that Metros can have blocks/binding but Sadowsky NYCs can't.
Click to expand...

The quality (whether real or perceived) of the Metro range has definitely 'hurt' used prices of NYC's over here in the UK.

Just about every discussion I've seen that compares the two ranges seems to focus on the fact that it's not worth paying the extra for an NYC because the Metro matches them in every respect.

The one bass that seemed to really spark interest in NYCs again was the Will Lee but that's widely available (in Sadowsky terms) in Metro form as well now.

Personally I think the NYCs I've owned and tried have all been superior to the Metros - but try telling that to someone who's got a fixed price in his head as to the 'worth' of a Sadowsky!
Personally
 
#524
No more Sadowsky talk in the Fodera thread:D... didn't mean to open that can of worms. Just tried to provide some examples and discussion (as Mike Pope also mentioned) of the difficulty a high end company can run into when introducing/designing/modifying a lower end product line.

I look forward to seeing how the Fodera NYC basses continue to evolve:bassist:
 
#528
thepontif said:
I'm not firm in a particular opinion on this subject, but the one thing that comes to my mind (and forgive me if someone already mentioned it and I missed it) is not what good it would do the NYC line, but the potential for it to "devalue" the flagship Fodera line. Seems like there should be something very apparent that one gets when they pay the big bucks for a Fodera. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

add me to the folks who think along the lines of ken and mike on this. it was initial reaction to the question.

imho, if you want to change the headstock, go ahead, but don't make it like the hand-carved fodera stuff.
 
#529
I would not change the NYC headstock for one that looks like the custom line. I think the great success of the NYC line is that somehow is a Fodera, you get the butterfly, in a completely different instrument and that is a terrific value.
I, IMO, don't think Fodera needs to make the NYC line look more like the custom line, and as Mike Pope said it could hurt the top line... while "mudding the waters" on the NYC line. Consistency in the design lines is also something that I value in a brand (like Apple). Also not only the prices for the custom or used custom could go down but the used NYC as well.
 
#530
thepontif said:
I'm not firm in a particular opinion on this subject, but the one thing that comes to my mind (and forgive me if someone already mentioned it and I missed it) is not what good it would do the NYC line, but the potential for it to "devalue" the flagship Fodera line. Seems like there should be something very apparent that one gets when they pay the big bucks for a Fodera. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

I Agree completely with Mike... The NYC line looks fine the way it is... and there is potential to do harm to the main line image. We've seen that happen with a certain amplifier company.
 
#531
I have to admit, for me this is a tough question to answer. I think the Fodera headstock is by far the most elegant, sophisticated and smartest designs. I personally love the NYC line, but hate the headstock. It seems to bulky (IMO of course) but it does a great job of giving a tell tale difference between the full blown custom stuff and the NYC's. I do agree with someone above that the "NYC" font could use some revamping and maybe even a slight change to the headstock wouldn't hurt as well.

Speaking as someone who no longer can afford a full blown Fodera, I would love to buy an NYC with the traditional Fodera HS. It would be great to see this, but maybe put something on the headstock that makes it easily recognizable as an NYC.

I also see Mike's and others points about possibly de-valuing the true handmade Fodera's... but I would think those who really want a Fodera will still buy a custom one but those on the fence about the NYC's may be swayed to purchase because they can have the Fodera look at a fraction of the price.

This is a tough one for sure. I have to also say that I would be much more inclined to order a NYC with a traditional Fodera HS if that was available compared to now just looking at them and wishing it looked like a Fodera.
 
#532
I am somewhat torn on this question,...

On one hand, I agree with many of the previous posts about blurring the lines between the custom & NYC and how this could possibly devalue the main line. The NYC has become available with more options and that raises it's value considerably and helps it compare to the custom line (IMO). It is important that it has it's own distinctly different "signature".

All of that being said, that is my reaction after being familiar with Fodera for a while now and having learned about the company. If I think back to my first reactions to the NYC line when I first learned about Fodera and didn't know anything about the company at all, my first reaction to the NYC was that it somehow didn't seem like a Fodera. That was of course before I heard great recordings with them and was based just on looks. I was attracted to the beautiful modern look of the customs, and was not interested in the look of the NYC. The headstock is the signature of the instrument, like the scroll of an upright is, and the NYC does not have the same Fodera signature.

I am kind of contradicting myself here, but I'm really trying to think back to my first impression which was almost two years ago.... Perhaps there is a compromise that can exist between having similar headstocks, yet somehow being distinct from each other. I guess I'd need to see a mock up.

I also agree with Climb regarding the font on the NYC.

One more thought, why not offer the NYC in a six string? That was also a problem for me when I first started investigating Fodera as I am mainly interested in six string basses.

Sorry for the ramblings!
 
#535
KJung, how good or bad a job to you think Spector has done at keeping their US and Euro basses (I'm not referring to the Legend or Performer series) distinct from each other? I think given your previous two examples (Lakland and Sadowsky) Spector probably comes closer than either at offering what on the surface appears to be essentially the same bass at very different price points. As far as I know, Spector is pretty successful at selling both.
I think the whole thing is doable, but as you mentioned, it's a tricky thing to pull off. I don't think there is any way to totally avoid cannibalizing some of your sales to the lower cost product, but it can be controlled if done properly.
Personally, a Fodera at the current price point is out of the question for me. And that's not a knock at Fodera. I can just as easily say the same for any of the higher priced basses out there. I don't question their price, nor do I doubt the level of quality you are getting. I just couldn't justify it for me. If there was a lower cost product that was similar, I for one would be interested. Much the same as the Metro's, Skylines, Euro's and Zon import series interests me. It could really open up a whole new market for them which would be a good thing for Fodera as a company IMO. However, I can defiantly see how current Fodera owners might not appreciate having lower cost imitations of their hand crafted instruments entering the market.
 
#537
IMHO/E I don't see the devaluation of the top line by the NYC with a "real" Fodera HS if, IF the NYC keeps the options at their minimum, like alder-ash, maple-rw-ebony, electronics ... whatever.
Like Sadowsky did with the metro/nyc lines.

This will always put each of the top line instruments unique and labor expensive....
Hope I make sense.

M
 
#539
maurilio said:
IMHO/E I don't see the devaluation of the top line by the NYC with a "real" Fodera HS if, IF the NYC keeps the options at their minimum, like alder-ash, maple-rw-ebony, electronics ... whatever.
M
Click to expand...

I may be wrong, but I understand that the options have already been opened up and wood and electronics are somewhat flexible. Relatively speaking of course, not nearly as flexible as customs.
 
#540
I believe the headstock should stay as is. The Fodera headstock is my favorite, tied with Fender for me. The NYC line wouldn't look right with the Fodera headstock, they look too jazz bass like, more so than the Emperor shape. If Fodera were to offer an NYC featuring the Emperor shape with the Fodera headstock at the NYC price, I'd be the first in line. This probably wouldn't be a good idea for Fodera as this could effect their high end line whereas now, the NYC in it's current form is a nice addition that takes nothing away.
 
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