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Fodera Club Part VI

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#981
climb said:
Ok, since nobody really responded to my question about woods/tone in Foderas (but I'd welcome any late responses), let's discuss bolt-on vs. neck through for a minute. Do you guys believe that bolt-on necks are punchier than neck-throughs? If so, why? What are the acoustics/physics involved with making it punchier?
Click to expand...

Charles,

My opinion is that you can get the same punch out of a neck-through than out of a bolt-on. The specific sound of a bass is more determined by the harmonization of all wooden (and other) components, for instance the amount of laminates used in the neck, than only by the type of neck joint. I own and owned a lot of neck-throughs that are built with more laminates in it than in their bolt-on counterparts, probably hard and dense woods adding some compression. Are the laminates or is the neck joint the dominating factor for the tone ?

The Deluxe VW Monarchs and the YY I owned have had an unbeatable explosive attack, even compared with a couple of breathtaking Imperials and Emperors ... does it derive from the dovetail or the EMGs ?

I own 2 Emperor Elite 5 providing more punch (ime) than all other bolt-on 5ers I ever played, quite similar to my Smiths.

I owned a Sadowsky and still a Lull 5 string with a thundering B string, absolutely even with the other strings - both bolt-ons ...

Even for fretless I where strongly minded about a clear preference of through-necks because I thought they might provide a more rich and organic tone, ....until I played a F bass AC5, which is bolt-on.

I owned more than 20 old Fender Jazz Basses and they sounded very different to me - not all sounded like that what I would call punchy !

So I gave up to derive the sound of a bass directly from single attributes. It's a brand or model, a specific manner in which parts are composed together into a whole instrument, which catches my attention...

Of course everything related to wood is subjective and not pure physics. My 2c.

Sorry for too much text and blabla...
 
#982
Bolt ons vs neck throughs....

It's my understanding that neck through basses have more sustain than a bolt on, if all other factors are equal. If that is true, then bolt ons could have a psychoacoustic effect giving the impression of being punchier (I recognize that I'm kind of out of my league here, so please understand that I'm just theorizing). What I mean by that is, if you divide a note played on a bass in to attack and decay, a bolt on neck may have a faster decay (less sustain) therefore giving the impression of more attack. This idea is similar to the way that we use a compressor... For bass, we set a compressor with a long attack so that we let the attack of the bass pass through before the compressor engages. This is a way of creating a "punchy" tone. On a neck through we have more sustain, so we hear it as relatively having less attack. Another comparison is upright basses, tons of attack and the note decays very quickly.

To sum up, my theory is that a punchy bass tone is the result of the ratio of attack to sustain/decay. A lot of factors could effect attack and decay, and not all neck throughs have more sustain, just as not all bolt ons are punchy. But, I believe that if all other factors were equal, a bolt on would be punchier than it's neck through counterpart.
 
#983
Omg... just came from Europe to pick up my new Fodera (twin of basswalker bass :D ) and got to say that, i really never saw such a great, detail, playability, shape all together...
This really nit just made my day, but made my life.
As soon as i come home, in 2 weeks i'll make a sound clip of it....
So happy but still didn't plug it into amp... tomorrow going to guitar center to blow peoples heads... :))
Thanks a lot too all guys and girl at fodera..... weeeee...
 
#984
People often say that a bolt-on has a kind of "compression" in it's sound. I imagine this is what you're talking about. To me, it sounds like a bolt-on, when you dig into it, has more "DOOF" to the attack. It may be that there is more inharmonic content in a bolt-on. Inharmonic content, because it is unsupported by a consonant overtone series, doesn't sustain very long and gives the sound sort of a "messy" sounding front end.

A neck through seems to have a more nearly "piano-like" envelope to my ears.

It may be that with a bolt-on, when you hit a note you're transmitting sound into the bass at both ends of the string and the two, often dis-similar, woods telegraph the vibration in all "directions", some of which are toward the neck joint, where I would guess the sound doesn't transfer nearly as well as it does in a solid piece of wood.

With a neck through, the string and the single mass of material can more nearly vibrate as a single unit. I understand the necks are multi-piece, but each laminate is contiguous from on end to the other.

I'm making some assumptions here, so don't take it as gospel (yes, I get the irony). But I bet I'm not too far off.
 
#985
Interesting thoughts. But wouldn't you say your bass has a lot of sustain? My bolt-on emperor 4 seems to have a lot of natural sustain. There's always going to be a transition in wood between neck and body, even in a neck through. Are you saying that the neck joint itself imparts 'irregularities' that change the tonal character of the attack?
 
#986
I think the neck joint probably does impart irregularities. To my thinking this just seems logical. Any junction of dissimilar materials would seem to behave differently than a single piece of wood.

I'm not saying that a bolt on doesn't have as much sustain, necessarily. I'm saying that there may be a component to the beginning of sound that dies quickly. An inharmonic component. And that it gives the sense of a "thumpier" attack. Bear in mind, I play with a pretty high action and I dig in pretty hard compared to many people who are buying boutique basses (based on the height of many of the actions I see on these basses). It stands to reason that when you're playing really light, the difference may be negligible.

You remember my little piano? The one I had before I got the 9 footer.... The action frame was slightly warped at the bass end and wasn't properly seated in the action bed of the piano. So when you hit a loud, low note, the action frame would "slap" against the keybed. This produced a "thump" which was almost not noticeable in and of itself. Now it was a short piano, so it didn't have a huge bass anyway, but fixing that issue and getting rid of that inharmonic content at the front end of the sound most definitely gave my ear the impression that I was hearing a more "pure" tone with more fundamental and better sustain, even though the sustain was not really affected.
 
#987
DELACIUS said:
Omg... just came from Europe to pick up my new Fodera (twin of basswalker bass :D ) and got to say that, i really never saw such a great, detail, playability, shape all together...
This really nit just made my day, but made my life.
As soon as i come home, in 2 weeks i'll make a sound clip of it....
So happy but still didn't plug it into amp... tomorrow going to guitar center to blow peoples heads... :))
Thanks a lot too all guys and girl at fodera..... weeeee...
Click to expand...

that's awsome... enjoy, I love mine
 
#988
There must be a reasonable way to study these issues of tone, wood, electronics, and design. I realize that no two instruments are exactly the same, but the effects of these changes should be measurable objectively. I'm not entirely sure what the point would be, but I would sure be curious to know what 'punchiness' means in terms of actual physics or acoustics, especially with regard to a bass guitar. Same goes for tone woods--why are the classic wood combinations widely used and recognized? Must be that they differ from one another in distinct ways that are relatively easy to perceive (and therefore to measure).

Anybody here ever spec a Fodera with a custom wood combination that they regretted?
 
#989
thepontif said:
People often say that a bolt-on has a kind of "compression" in it's sound. I imagine this is what you're talking about. To me, it sounds like a bolt-on, when you dig into it, has more "DOOF" to the attack. It may be that there is more inharmonic content in a bolt-on. Inharmonic content, because it is unsupported by a consonant overtone series, doesn't sustain very long and gives the sound sort of a "messy" sounding front end.

A neck through seems to have a more nearly "piano-like" envelope to my ears.

It may be that with a bolt-on, when you hit a note you're transmitting sound into the bass at both ends of the string and the two, often dis-similar, woods telegraph the vibration in all "directions", some of which are toward the neck joint, where I would guess the sound doesn't transfer nearly as well as it does in a solid piece of wood.

With a neck through, the string and the single mass of material can more nearly vibrate as a single unit. I understand the necks are multi-piece, but each laminate is contiguous from on end to the other.

I'm making some assumptions here, so don't take it as gospel (yes, I get the irony). But I bet I'm not too far off.
Click to expand...

Summed it up for me in a nutshell!
 
#990
dpbass66 said:
When I was a kid playing little league (baseball), we always used to joke that you can't hit any better just because you buy a new bat....turns out that may actually be true if you use a Fodera "bat" (?!).
Click to expand...

That does not seem to be too far fetched for me.

I remember reading an interview with the late Milt Hinton. He said that when he first hit the scene he bought the best sounding bass he could get. Even though that bass must have cost him a fortune it must have been a good investment. Milt said that he got way more gigs and studio jobs than before, and the main reason was that he had the best sound of all the bassists around.

I would love to hear about your experiences when you started using your Fodera. Did you feel the same impact on your playing and musical aura like I did? :bassist:
 
#991
Mike --

I am right with you on this statement...I think that this is one of the very best ways to describe a neck-through's tone. Not exactly sure why (as all words are inherently limited / flawed in describing sound) , but I have used this phrase myself many times and it just feels right...

Sorry I missed you on Friday afternoon!

thepontif said:
A neck through seems to have a more nearly "piano-like" envelope to my ears.
Click to expand...
 
#992
Indeed....Piano-like tone is my description for the Fodera neck-through's I've owned.

Jason, how many Fodera's have been built using Korina / Limba for body wood? Love mine...

Garey


Just Thumpin' said:
Mike --

I am right with you on this statement...I think that this is one of the very best ways to describe a neck-through's tone. Not exactly sure why (as all words are inherently limited / flawed in describing sound) , but I have used this phrase myself many times and it just feels right...

Sorry I missed you on Friday afternoon!
Click to expand...
 
#993
lowerb said:
That does not seem to be too far fetched for me.

I remember reading an interview with the late Milt Hinton. He said that when he first hit the scene he bought the best sounding bass he could get. Even though that bass must have cost him a fortune it must have been a good investment. Milt said that he got way more gigs and studio jobs than before, and the main reason was that he had the best sound of all the bassists around.

I would love to hear about your experiences when you started using your Fodera. Did you feel the same impact on your playing and musical aura like I did? :bassist:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know my analogy was kind of queer. But I can add that I recall many interviews of great bassists that include good tone as a component of your responsibility as a musician. Ifyou think about all the greats on electric, nearly every single guy had remarkable tone. Interestingly, many had/have unique tone, so there isnt only "one" answer to the tone question.
 
#997
Having seen Victor live a number of times, I can vouch for his mastery of coaxing a wide variety of tone out of his Fodera throughout the show. Lincoln Goines is another Fodera artist that also comes to mind.


Stevie Ray Vaughan, one of Vinny's personal favorites on guitar, was/is also noted for his ability to make his guitar "sing".
 
#998
Jason, how many Fodera's have been built using Korina / Limba for body wood?
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to know what the tone of these body woods offer.

What other body woods have been used over the years other than the standard Alder, Ash, Mahogany and Walnut?

I know Lincoln favors Koa and I think I recall 1 or 2 that have been made with Maple bodies.
 
#999
OliveFodera said:
I'd be curious to know what the tone of these body woods offer.

What other body woods have been used over the years other than the standard Alder, Ash, Mahogany and Walnut?

I know Lincoln favors Koa and I think I recall 1 or 2 that have been made with Maple bodies.
Click to expand...

I chose korina (african limba) because I had spec'd it in other instruments and knew it wasn't something totally farout tone-wise. Sonically it is in the same range as mahogany....afaik. My bass is incredibly resonant...I was told the korina they used was curing for 40+ years before Fodera bought it +/- 2 decades ago. Its beautiful and sounds fantastic...
 
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