It's the sub builder's dilemma, you can pick any two characteristics, at the expense of the third:
Compact size,
Low frequency extension,
High SPL output.
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Folded Horn Configurations?
- Thread starter Ross W. Lovell
- Start date
Compact size,
Low frequency extension,
High SPL output.
If horn driven bass speakers would stand out the conventional, there would be a market for. Meanwhile one can go stunningly little for a good bass blast up for a 3-500 folks venue, d-class amps and ripen out speaker concepts make it possible. Ime size does not matter that much anymore ... and for arts sake, i hauled enough throughout my life.
What you described is called “Hoffman’s Iron Law”.
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
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- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
In the 70s I had a V4B the 215 folded horn cab.. Only had it for a few weeks then went with 2 ampeg 810s..
The V4B NAILED that knocky midrange but punchy sound from Aerosmith's "Walk This Way" sound.
My crew guy worked for Aerosmith back in that time too. He said they had a few V4B cabs. .But i can verify is that is what he used on that song.. .
The V4B NAILED that knocky midrange but punchy sound from Aerosmith's "Walk This Way" sound.
My crew guy worked for Aerosmith back in that time too. He said they had a few V4B cabs. .But i can verify is that is what he used on that song.. .
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For a period of time I left my two SVT cabs home and played through two JBL scoops with my SVT head at the urging of our soundman during the early 80's, I never really liked them as they sounded so anemic up close, he loved them and used to say that the SVT's were "artificial" sound for some reason, but at the same time he was always touting Bill Wyman's bass sound who used SVT's for years, go figure. I finally said the hell with those things are started using my good old SVT's, everybody but the sound man liked them much better and the scoops rightfully (IMHO) took their place upfront with the PA bottoms along with two others. I also tried an Acoustic 360/361 once and felt the same way, anemic up close, I never really gave it a chance though as I've heard a lot of people sound really good with them since. I also owned two Sunn 2000S cabs at one point, they weren't really horns but similar, and sounded pretty good but again SVT's sounded better to me. The only cab of that style I ever liked were the V4-B's, they sounded good right up close, at least to me unless the name "Ampeg" was talking to me
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When I was a kid a friend of mine's father used to own a theater in town and it had one Voice of the Theater behind the screen along with an Altec tube amp up in the carbon arc projection room, I was amazed at how loud and clear that set up was. One of my bands during the early 70's had two Voice of the Thearter's for a PA, those things used to be very common, I wonder where they all are nowadays?
.When I was a kid a friend of mine's father used to own a theater in town and it had one Voice of the Theater behind the screen along with an Altec tube amp up in the carbon arc projection room, I was amazed at how loud and clear that set up was. One of my bands during the early 70's had two Voice of the Thearter's for a PA, those things used to be very common, I wonder where they all are nowadays?
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I have a large living room with a vaulted ceiling, 13 feet at the peak. I originally used them quite a bit, but they’re now just collecting dust.
My amp went south and rather than buy a new one I picked up a set of powered studio monitors, and they work for what I need. At this point they’re overkill for what I use them for.
Andy, what freqs do you call midrange??? for us old guys there were only 4 string basses. the low E was 40 hz, next octave was 80hz, then 160, then 320.....highest note on a four string 1950's bass add second harmonic and you have 640hz.......I assume the horn rolls off at 6db per octave above that which could be boosted some by the treble knob.....all that leads me to for us old guys, thats what I am used to and love that sound........I know the world has changed and bass players seem to want 20 to 20khz and thats your bread and butter. I guess its good to have choices
Andy, what freqs do you call midrange??? for us old guys there were only 4 string basses. the low E was 40 hz, next octave was 80hz, then 160, then 320.....highest note on a four string 1950's bass add second harmonic and you have 640hz.......I assume the horn rolls off at 6db per octave above that which could be boosted some by the treble knob.....all that leads me to for us old guys, thats what I am used to and love that sound........I know the world has changed and bass players seem to want 20 to 20khz and thats your bread and butter. I guess its good to have choices
I've seen 150 Hz thrown around here a lot which is what, about high E on your G string?
I guess thats a generational thing, since we have added the low b, etc.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Midrange for bass is somewhere (loosely) from around 150-600Hz, but this is always subject to debate.
Some years back a friend had a pair of 212 folded horns for the mids in his PA.
They always were loud enough for anywhere, even with way too loud guitar players.
One day I was at his house when he had one open to fix a wire that had vibrated loose.
I expected some serious, high dollar drivers.
I think they were Jensen C12Ns!
So yes, folded horns with smaller drivers can be used.
In this case they only had to cover 125 to 1500 or so.
They did that quite well.
Not extremely heavy, but plenty large.
I think they were about 3 x 2 x 4 feet.
They always were loud enough for anywhere, even with way too loud guitar players.
One day I was at his house when he had one open to fix a wire that had vibrated loose.
I expected some serious, high dollar drivers.
I think they were Jensen C12Ns!
So yes, folded horns with smaller drivers can be used.
In this case they only had to cover 125 to 1500 or so.
They did that quite well.
Not extremely heavy, but plenty large.
I think they were about 3 x 2 x 4 feet.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
That would be a 408 cabinet with a 320 head. Acoustic model numbers are nothing if not completely opaque. I had a stack like that, and it was indeed an amazing amp and cabinet. I also have a 360/361 that I kept. The 361 folded horn sounds great (to me), and it is smaller than the 408 cabinet. It's also a whole lot heavier. They have wheels, and I think they are easier to move than a standard issue 410 cabinet. Those were sent to earth by a diabolical power determined to destroy innocent lower backs everywhere. It's all relative.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
810 Ampeg form factor is pretty well known
Feasible decent horn mouth roughly fits within a Ampeg 810 form factor
Hence my Acoustic 301 W bin
Lowend and output of the 301 is roughly the same. But it's lighter than a 810
Uses one speaker instead of 8 so weight savings are pretty good. Really good
Nobody buys them, so nobody makes them. Otherwise for people actually using big cabs. Folded horn is very feasible.
Likewise with the current trend in using 1/2 inch material instead of 3/4 inch material.
A 301 made with 1/2 inch material would be quite a bit lighter
I'm reaching very high band levels with 150watts lol
So watts are cheap n light these days. But likewise 300 / 400 watt tube amps still have the weight and tube life issues.
So lighter dependable tube tone at 100 watts to 170 watts is easier to achieve high SPL with horn loaded cabs.
Hence the original Ampeg V4B folded horn. Designed for a 100/130 watt amplifier
Likewise the Acoustic 301 which was designed for a 200/260 watt amplifier
Both reaching levels that usually require what players assume now takes 600 or 800 watts lol. 330/450 watts being more realistic.
The 3ohm Cerwin Vega 18" driver in my 301 was a big deal at the time.
Likewise my 370 was designed to run that 3 ohms without a single fan.
Also designed to run 2 of those 301s
At 1.5 ohms with no fans
370 isn't a powerhouse by today's standards. But shows my point that large horns make alot SPL with minimal watts.
So it's very simple to make extremely dependable low power tube or solid state amplifiers to power them.
I guess light" as well but if your carrying a W bin or 810 amplifier weight is not a concern.
Ironically a non switch mode, non class d head at 300 watts is only 16 pounds
Which is basically the weight of 2 gallons of milk when the old lady hits up the grocery store lol.
Basically a 2 finger carry....ouch that's heavy
Feasible decent horn mouth roughly fits within a Ampeg 810 form factor
Hence my Acoustic 301 W bin
Lowend and output of the 301 is roughly the same. But it's lighter than a 810
Uses one speaker instead of 8 so weight savings are pretty good. Really good
Nobody buys them, so nobody makes them. Otherwise for people actually using big cabs. Folded horn is very feasible.
Likewise with the current trend in using 1/2 inch material instead of 3/4 inch material.
A 301 made with 1/2 inch material would be quite a bit lighter
I'm reaching very high band levels with 150watts lol
So watts are cheap n light these days. But likewise 300 / 400 watt tube amps still have the weight and tube life issues.
So lighter dependable tube tone at 100 watts to 170 watts is easier to achieve high SPL with horn loaded cabs.
Hence the original Ampeg V4B folded horn. Designed for a 100/130 watt amplifier
Likewise the Acoustic 301 which was designed for a 200/260 watt amplifier
Both reaching levels that usually require what players assume now takes 600 or 800 watts lol. 330/450 watts being more realistic.
The 3ohm Cerwin Vega 18" driver in my 301 was a big deal at the time.
Likewise my 370 was designed to run that 3 ohms without a single fan.
Also designed to run 2 of those 301s
At 1.5 ohms with no fans
370 isn't a powerhouse by today's standards. But shows my point that large horns make alot SPL with minimal watts.
So it's very simple to make extremely dependable low power tube or solid state amplifiers to power them.
I guess light" as well but if your carrying a W bin or 810 amplifier weight is not a concern.
Ironically a non switch mode, non class d head at 300 watts is only 16 pounds
Which is basically the weight of 2 gallons of milk when the old lady hits up the grocery store lol.
Basically a 2 finger carry....ouch that's heavy
Except an ampeg 810 will work 3 to 5 octaves+ higher than a folded horn. If all you want is bompf, bompf, that's ok, I guess. I don't know what the upper cutoff is of your particular W bin, but it can't be very high.
John Paul Jones never really complained. But yes there is a frequency cutoff.
Likewise boundry effects with horn loading. Which brings about alot common myths and arguments.
I rarely use the treble boost switch on my 370 but you can tell it was specifically designed to the cutoff of the horn.
When engaged there is no complaints on the high end for sure. Overall it's not a boomy tone unless you want it. Midrange is incredible at band levels.
371 bass system is slightly different than a 361. I just literally cry to this day when I watch led Zeppelin Song Remains the Same. And have performed with Zep cover bands. Though I don't own a 361 system. My 371 sitting on stage, with a Marshall stack and authentic Ludwig drum kit. Is a amazing experience for me.
John Paul Jones being a huge hero for me. I don't boost horn loading changing the world today lol. But turning up my 371 with a Jazz bass straight in just literally nails the sound so well its incredible
