For All You Lakland Tone Lovers

[mixx80]

Jauqo,
I appreciate you posting this thread. I know it's supposed to be about Lakland tone. But for me it has turned me on to two artist I have never heard of. Goapele & N'dambi, both are fantastic and the bass lines just groove on the tracks I have heard.

Through all of this Neo-Soul YouTube talk no one mentioned the guys name or did I miss something ? So we can at least give him props I mean a thread about him and all !

 

[MikeBass]

Mike if that's the case why do a lot of players quickly comment about how a player should have played the line? Or the player who is complaining just know that they would make the bass line so much better.

That's easy J.....because in each persons world, they ALWAYS have a better way.
I have a better way than Obama to fight terrorism....bring all the troops back here and put them on the streets.
And dare some idiot to try something with troops everywhere armed to the hilt.....(joking to make a point).

I say this kinda sarcasticly, kinda serious.
No one likes to be wrong or know that they didn't do as good if not better.
I don't care how humble a cat is, or how sincere they try to be- they, you, me just don't like to be "not as good".
we can be "PC" and say the right things, but everyone has an ego that comes out.
Yours did J. Your comment about telling someone to go f themselves proved that.
Is that a bad thing? Hell no.
Not to me. I know and love you, so I totally get where you're coming from.

Is Andrew Gouche really that much better than you or I?
Subjective at best.
Honestly it is.
I'm sure there is SOMETHING I do better than he that someone will like.
It's impossible to qualify "better" when it comes to music.
(I doubt there is really! For the record, I don't claim to be on his level- so relax!)
But most will qualify how they could maybe do it better. And in their minds they can.
Again- subjective.

I play with some INSANLY good guys right now.
Doing the R&B thing as good as anyone IMO. They smoke at that.
Me, not so much. I'm not an R&B guy much at all.
"New" country. All day long.
Get them to play a Lady Antebellum song like it's SUPPOSED to be played........Sorry, I smoke them every time. They can't come close to my feel on it.

I posted up a Keith Urban video a while back in another thread. Abso-effin-lutly perfect excution of a song by his band (I'll find the link again). Not just his song. Just a song.
Is Andrew Gouche better than Jerry Flowers? Who is he you ask?
The bass player for Keith Urban. And Jerry flat out KILLS on that gig in every aspect (you don't get the bass slot with pretty much the biggest male artist in country/pop because you're "OK").

My long winded comment here.......in the moment, when everything for a player is clicking on a tune, they are the flat out best on that stage.
I've played modern gospel, and at times, I felt, I was flat out killin' the tune like I wrote it.

A lot of it is genre "class warfare" as well.
Take someone like Andrew Gouche for example (and not to single him out, just an example) and listen to a track of his.
Then take Jerry Flowers (again, as an example).
Almost EVERYONE will take Andrew Gouche as being the "better player".
Is he? Really?

I would bet again, almost everyone here would really think Jerry Flowers and be like "meh.... I could do that easily as good or better than him...".
And you play the tune and you really feel like you did.
(Then you get on THAT gig and have your arse handed to you before the second chorus of the first song at sound check)

So, it goes back to, at that moment, on that stage, when you are playing that song, you are THAT guy and then some.
I am yet to hear anyone on here say they didn't get a gig, or didn't play something because they were not good enough.

Hell J, I'd take a shot at playing your stuff, and on some level on some song, I may feel I did a better job than you.
Or you on my gig and you may feel you did/do a better job than me (and you could really!).

 

[Fretless5verfan]

Mike, I'm just gonna let you post everything I mean to say from here on out lol.

 

[Kwesi]

It's a live mix being played back through Youtube. Seriously doubt it faithfully represents what it actually sounded like mix-wise.

That is one thing I have noticed with the younger crop of musicians is that 'wall' of sound thing! Went to a Jill Scott concert a couple years ago and the band sounded horrible! Everyone on 'full blast' it seemed! I walked out after 3 or so songs. I couldn't take it anymore! I have to say that, there are some phenominal musicians today as compared to my era but they don't study 'music' as a whole. They master their instrument and do mindblowing things but still when it comes to playing in a band, seem to be clueless when to give the music some sonic space and subtleties. Again, the recording is a board feed and most likely how the audience may have heard it. It may have sounded different on stage. Who knows. The best test is to go see these artists live!

Gosh she is a player. That is just PERFECT to my ear in every way

DW, the problem is that young guys learn to play in church instead of clubs or school bands. Gospel is great music, but often exuberance fades into chaos with vocalists and instrumentalists slinging around way too many fills and straying too far from the melody and structure. I say this as someone who mainly plays in church.

Players in earlier generations who played in dance bands had leaders who kept them in check, the same for a school band.

Agreed on all points made

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Mike I fully get your point.

And for some one to think than one bass player is better than a country bassist simply because they may be playing some funk or r&b, really tells me a lot about that type of thinker.

 

[mstott25]

This kills me. How is offering an opinion of anyone's playing disrespectful? What difference does it make if you're a legend or a nobody?

It makes a huge difference.

By the way I thought all your posts were completely respectful so if you took what I wrote as directed towards you, it wasn't.

Criticism is great and necessary but most of the people who frequent Talkbass have not accomplished enough in this field to criticize half the players I see discussed. I'm sorry this kills you...

The opinions that matter most are the opinions that come from those who have contributed or are contributing in the field we are discussing, namely playing the bass. I don't think "bass playing" should be a field or topic unique from any other in that anybody whose ever seen or picked up the instrument can express a valid and meaningful opinion. I wouldn't expect anybody who has had limited exposure to psychology (the field you mentioned) to so easily dismiss William James yet people here routinely show up to criticize players from Jeff Berlin to Andrew Gouche.

My concern at this point is in preserving the integrity and respect that a community of bass players should make a habit of displaying. I would much rather see people displaying humility and appreciation on a regular basis than the constant criticism from players nobody has ever even heard of. I'd really hate to see these forums start to mirror the comments section on a youtube video.

If somebody chooses to be offended by what I've said then that truly is not my intention. Everybody has the right to bash and criticize away but I for one think an atmosphere that promotes more humility and actual playing rather than armchair nitpicking would only enhance this community and our enjoyment in exploring this wonderful instrument together.

 

[BlountEdge]

My concern at this point is in preserving the integrity and respect that a community of bass players should make a habit of displaying. I would much rather see people displaying humility and appreciation on a regular basis than the constant criticism from players nobody has ever even heard of. I'd really hate to see these forums start to mirror the comments section on a youtube video.

If somebody chooses to be offended by what I've said then that truly is not my intention. Everybody has the right to bash and criticize away but I for one think an atmosphere that promotes more humility and actual playing rather than armchair nitpicking would only enhance this community and our enjoyment in exploring this wonderful instrument together.

Very well stated.

 

[Scott McC]

That guy can lay back for days. Way back.

 

[MikeBass]

Mike I fully get your point.

And for some one to think than one bass player is better than a country bassist simply because they may be playing some funk or r&b, really tells me a lot about that type of thinker.

Not supposed to be a A/B for tow different types of music, just players.

Mike, I'm just gonna let you post everything I mean to say from here on out lol.

Aww.....you really think I groove harder than Marcus Miller and I'm better looking than Brad Pitt????
Thanks!

 

[Fretless5verfan]

It makes a huge difference.

By the way I thought all your posts were completely respectful so if you took what I wrote as directed towards you, it wasn't.

Criticism is great and necessary but most of the people who frequent Talkbass have not accomplished enough in this field to criticize half the players I see discussed. I'm sorry this kills you...

The opinions that matter most are the opinions that come from those who have contributed or are contributing in the field we are discussing, namely playing the bass. I don't think "bass playing" should be a field or topic unique from any other in that anybody whose ever seen or picked up the instrument can express a valid and meaningful opinion. I wouldn't expect anybody who has had limited exposure to psychology (the field you mentioned) to so easily dismiss William James yet people here routinely show up to criticize players from Jeff Berlin to Andrew Gouche.

My concern at this point is in preserving the integrity and respect that a community of bass players should make a habit of displaying. I would much rather see people displaying humility and appreciation on a regular basis than the constant criticism from players nobody has ever even heard of. I'd really hate to see these forums start to mirror the comments section on a youtube video.

If somebody chooses to be offended by what I've said then that truly is not my intention. Everybody has the right to bash and criticize away but I for one think an atmosphere that promotes more humility and actual playing rather than armchair nitpicking would only enhance this community and our enjoyment in exploring this wonderful instrument together.

I understand and appreciate your point, but I don't think the comparison you made to psychology is analogous as you make it out to be. There's an element of music that is simply not objective, and there is no accounting for it. I can't stand Jeff Berlin's music, but I know he's a technical monster the likes of which I could only hope to be. If I say I don't like A of one of his songs, and would rather have heard him play B because it would have been groovier, that warrants no objective explanation. It's 100% subjective. However, if I say I disagree with William James' concept of emotion, because his theory lacks a critical step between the outside stimulus and the physiological response, I have to explain that in order for it to make sense.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

Aww.....you really think I groove harder than Marcus Miller and I'm better looking than Brad Pitt????
Thanks!

:scowl:

 

[mstott25]

I understand and appreciate your point, but I don't think the comparison you made to psychology is analogous as you make it out to be. There's an element of music that is simply not objective, and there is no accounting for it. I can't stand Jeff Berlin's music, but I know he's a technical monster the likes of which I could only hope to be. If I say I don't like A of one of his songs, and would rather have heard him play B because it would have been groovier, that warrants no objective explanation. It's 100% subjective. However, if I say I disagree with William James' concept of emotion, because his theory lacks a critical step between the outside stimulus and the physiological response, I have to explain that in order for it to make sense.

Well let’s say that rather than focus solely on the subjective and emotive qualities of music, we strive to maintain at all times a healthy perspective on the equally obvious and quantifiable aspects of music as well; i.e. this musician knows more tunes, has more gigs, has more experience than I do.

The point wasn’t to disparage music from any of its inherent richness, it is to support the idea that a community that embraces humility and respect above our own “opinions” might very well lead to more of us growing and learning whereas a community that embraces everybody’s right to voice their own view on how things would be if they were in charge might very well lead to most of us sitting exactly where we are now, in front of a computer screen criticizing working bass players.

The point about William James was to say that it would become apparent rather quickly if somebody were to offer a substantial criticism of his work and ideas based on actual time spent in preparation and serious thought as opposed to a quick glance at Wikipedia.

Obviously I've taken this thread off topic so I'll stop now.

 

[KJung]

That's easy J.....because in each persons world, they ALWAYS have a better way.
I have a better way than Obama to fight terrorism....bring all the troops back here and put them on the streets.
And dare some idiot to try something with troops everywhere armed to the hilt.....(joking to make a point).

I say this kinda sarcasticly, kinda serious.
No one likes to be wrong or know that they didn't do as good if not better.
I don't care how humble a cat is, or how sincere they try to be- they, you, me just don't like to be "not as good".
we can be "PC" and say the right things, but everyone has an ego that comes out.
Yours did J. Your comment about telling someone to go f themselves proved that.
Is that a bad thing? Hell no.
Not to me. I know and love you, so I totally get where you're coming from.

Is Andrew Gouche really that much better than you or I?
Subjective at best.
Honestly it is.
I'm sure there is SOMETHING I do better than he that someone will like.
It's impossible to qualify "better" when it comes to music.
(I doubt there is really! For the record, I don't claim to be on his level- so relax!)
But most will qualify how they could maybe do it better. And in their minds they can.
Again- subjective.

I play with some INSANLY good guys right now.
Doing the R&B thing as good as anyone IMO. They smoke at that.
Me, not so much. I'm not an R&B guy much at all.
"New" country. All day long.
Get them to play a Lady Antebellum song like it's SUPPOSED to be played........Sorry, I smoke them every time. They can't come close to my feel on it.

I posted up a Keith Urban video a while back in another thread. Abso-effin-lutly perfect excution of a song by his band (I'll find the link again). Not just his song. Just a song.
Is Andrew Gouche better than Jerry Flowers? Who is he you ask?
The bass player for Keith Urban. And Jerry flat out KILLS on that gig in every aspect (you don't get the bass slot with pretty much the biggest male artist in country/pop because you're "OK").

My long winded comment here.......in the moment, when everything for a player is clicking on a tune, they are the flat out best on that stage.
I've played modern gospel, and at times, I felt, I was flat out killin' the tune like I wrote it.

A lot of it is genre "class warfare" as well.
Take someone like Andrew Gouche for example (and not to single him out, just an example) and listen to a track of his.
Then take Jerry Flowers (again, as an example).
Almost EVERYONE will take Andrew Gouche as being the "better player".
Is he? Really?

I would bet again, almost everyone here would really think Jerry Flowers and be like "meh.... I could do that easily as good or better than him...".
And you play the tune and you really feel like you did.
(Then you get on THAT gig and have your arse handed to you before the second chorus of the first song at sound check)

So, it goes back to, at that moment, on that stage, when you are playing that song, you are THAT guy and then some.
I am yet to hear anyone on here say they didn't get a gig, or didn't play something because they were not good enough.

Hell J, I'd take a shot at playing your stuff, and on some level on some song, I may feel I did a better job than you.
Or you on my gig and you may feel you did/do a better job than me (and you could really!).

You go, girl! +1

 

[The Butler]

I just want to see the Keith Urban clip.
I do believe Jimmie Lee Sloas played bass in the studio for Keith.
Some newer country has some great bass lines. Lady Antebellum is one with some good bass stuff as well.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

The point wasn’t to disparage music from any of its inherent richness, it is to support the idea that a community that embraces humility and respect above our own “opinions” might very well lead to more of us growing and learning whereas a community that embraces everybody’s right to voice their own view on how things would be if they were in charge might very well lead to most of us sitting exactly where we are now, in front of a computer screen criticizing working bass players.

Or it may lead to those very same critics doing what they have to in order to become the person in charge. If we sit and think these pros are all so great and above critique, it's more likely to lead to an era of unoriginal amd uninspired music...wait a minute... Seriously though, it doesn't make sense to damn criticizing as being a slippery slope into stagnation. Don't we all get into music so that we can do what the pros do, but in our own way? Aren't these critiques just indicators of out own developing styles?

The point about William James was to say that it would become apparent rather quickly if somebody were to offer a substantial criticism of his work and ideas based on actual time spent in preparation and serious thought as opposed to a quick glance at Wikipedia.

Right, but there's no analogy to that in music. You can prepare all the arguments you want, but there comes a point where you have to have similar taste to agree, or different tastes to disagree. That doesn't happen in non-art fields. We're dealing with pure opinion here.

 

[smcgov]

I've never heard of or seen Goapele before but I think she should be investigated as the cause of global warming...dayumn

 

[MikeBass]

You go, girl! +1

err....umm....OK Ken.....

I just want to see the Keith Urban clip.
I do believe Jimmie Lee Sloas played bass in the studio for Keith.
Some newer country has some great bass lines. Lady Antebellum is one with some good bass stuff as well.

There is a host of great clips.
I'll try and find that one I posted a while back.

Not sure who played on the studio tracks, but again, on the new disc, the stuff is WAYYYYY in the pocket.

I didn't mean to pit one genre up against another at all. Sorry if I deflected the thread that way.

And yeah J, if someone takes players on that "A" list level, regardless of genre and down plays the player (example Gouche vs. Flowers) and in all honesty takes one of being a significiant better player over the other, well, I quickly disregard that view point.

You don't get on ANY high level gig like Chaka Kahn, Keith Urban, Jill Scott, Taylor Swift, hell Justin Bieber even, and NOT be able to bring it 99.99% every single night as required by the gig.

Screw up on a song or two in front of 15,000+ people on ANY gig if you're a sideman, you'll get latitude once, do it again and you're on your way out.

That's the 5% difference between "us" & "them".
Repeatability.
Same feel. Same tone. Same 99.99% every night of the tour.

So, we can all sit here and judge the clip that J put up- and all of us at some point can claim to do it in our own unique way (better or otherwise). The difference is, that guy is trusted by the artist/MD for his ability to do it consistantly every single time. (there are a host of other variables as well, but this is the subject at hand).

Almost goes hand in hand with having a signiture sound. Me, I wanna sound as generic as I can.
Some chump playing a "Fender". But that's another thread.........

 

[Dr. Cheese]

err....umm....OK Ken.....



There is a host of great clips.
I'll try and find that one I posted a while back.

Not sure who played on the studio tracks, but again, on the new disc, the stuff is WAYYYYY in the pocket.

I didn't mean to pit one genre up against another at all. Sorry if I deflected the thread that way.

And yeah J, if someone takes players on that "A" list level, regardless of genre and down plays the player (example Gouche vs. Flowers) and in all honesty takes one of being a significiant better player over the other, well, I quickly disregard that view point.

You don't get on ANY high level gig like Chaka Kahn, Keith Urban, Jill Scott, Taylor Swift, hell Justin Bieber even, and NOT be able to bring it 99.99% every single night as required by the gig.

Screw up on a song or two in front of 15,000+ people on ANY gig if you're a sideman, you'll get latitude once, do it again and you're on your way out.

That's the 5% difference between "us" & "them".
Repeatability.
Same feel. Same tone. Same 99.99% every night of the tour.

So, we can all sit here and judge the clip that J put up- and all of us at some point can claim to do it in our own unique way (better or otherwise). The difference is, that guy is trusted by the artist/MD for his ability to do it consistantly every single time. (there are a host of other variables as well, but this is the subject at hand).

Almost goes hand in hand with having a signiture sound. Me, I wanna sound as generic as I can.
Some chump playing a "Fender". But that's another thread.........

You bringing up country makes me think of the Willie Weeks interview where tells of how he was removed from his first country recording session. It was only after talking to the man that canned him that he got a better idea of what was required. I always think of that story because Willie Weeks was already a legendary bassist at that point. That story is a great example of how chops alone cannot compensate for having a feel for a certain type of music.

To also go back to another old topic. We have to remember that Andrew Gouche was Chaka Kan's MD. Prince was a guest player. Gouche simply told Prince that he would have to fit in with him, not vice versa. My guess is that it had been a long time since anybody had said that to Prince!

 

[hasbeen]

A lot of people on tb have no idea who Jamaaladeen Tacuma is. That's equally sad.

I did a Jamaaladeen Tacuma/Ornette Coleman tune for my senior recital...back in 1985.

I tried to nail that Steinberger tone he had with my Ken Smith and SWR SM400. I loved that album.

I also just wanted to testify that I knew who JT was.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I also just wanted to testify that I knew who JT was.