For All You Lakland Tone Lovers

[roadkill2309]

Fretless5verfan is this bass line to upfront in the mix for you.

It's Leon Sylvers III on bass and he is killin.

I've always loved that bass sound, but it kind of mystifies me how it happens. The treble knob is likely cranked right off. But for the mids and lows?

 

[DWBass]

Anyway, to me, it felt disconnected. I would have approached it differently myself, but that's how he did it.
It didn't feel as if the band was a coheisive unit.

Mike, that is the design of the song. It is purposely meant to have that looseness! I believe that style started from a producer who was working on a computer music sequence that was quantized wrong and decided.."Hey, that sounds cool, let's go with that"! LOL! Now, it's the 'thing' to do. But I'm old school! While I can fully appreciate the style (I can play it and have), I prefer the old school 'locked in' style of playing. I doubt I could be in a band that did this on the regular!

Back to the tone, NICE! Funny, I couldn't get that sound from a 55-02 I once owned and ended up trading it for a JO5.

 

[DWBass]

I've always loved that bass sound, but it kind of mystifies me how it happens. The treble knob is likely cranked right off. But for the mids and lows?

He's playing a Ric with a pic. Leon was meticulous in the studio! He'd do things over and over until it was perfect!

 

[Dr. Cheese]

He's playing a Ric with a pic. Leon was meticulous in the studio! He'd do things over and over until it was perfect!

He also used flatwounds and had the mutes turned up on his Ric to get that sound. Back in the day, I had a Ric, and I out on flatwounds and turned up the mutes and really got his tone. I just couldn't get with flats and went back to my GHS Boomers.

His tone on the N'Dambi clip sounds pretty typical of contemporary bassists compared to his Solaar sound back in the 1980s.

 

[willgroove2]

That's a good point. Funny. There was a classic 'modern gospel drummer' from your neck of the woods who was part of the freelance organization I work out of in St. Louis for a while. When we all played with him the first time, it was very cool, massive energy (also massive volume), those fun kind of gospel fills where you wonder if the drummer is going to finish by the downbeat of the next measure, etc.

By the third or so gig he did across the organization (i.e., with all the different combinations of bassists, etc.) over a few months, he was fired

That's not a uncommon scenario,the energy is great at first but then the fact that guy's like that have a hard time reining it in or playing the right part for certain songs comes into play,I have seen it happen several times

 

[DWBass]

That's not a uncommon scenario,the energy is great at first but then the fact that guy's like that have a hard time reining it in or playing the right part for certain songs comes into play,I have seen it happen several times

Or how about in my case, cats who thought it was ok to 'shed' during a paid gig! Completely ignoring a setlist! They wonder why they can't get a gig! And these cats are really talented but totally undisciplined!

 

[narud]

Great thread. On the comments about 'being a critic', my view and approach to that is NEVER to dog a player who isn't significantly better than you are. In other words, then you aren't doggin' a peer, but rather posting as an 'educated listener'.

my favorite is guys who talk about how they would have approached something AND they have examples of their playing out there. you then KNOW that their approach would have been wack.

then again, i liked the clips, i like the modern style of playing r&b, and i like drum fills the musicians i come across that usually take issue with it have a hard time playing with it or dont get it as a concept (or dont want to get it)

 

[MikeBass]

my favorite is guys who talk about how they would have approached something AND they have examples of their playing out there. you then KNOW that their approach would have been wack.
then again, i liked the clips, i like the modern style of playing r&b, and i like drum fills the musicians i come across that usually take issue with it have a hard time playing with it or dont get it as a concept (or dont want to get it)

This goes to the point of again, everyone has a way of doing it and no one way is the "right" way- unless you're the one playing at the time.
Or the "boss" tells you how to do it. Then THAT'S the right way!
The Golden Rule....do I need to explain it?

 

[Fretless5verfan]

This goes to the point of again, everyone has a way of doing it and no one way is the "right" way- unless you're the one playing at the time.
Or the "boss" tells you how to do it. Then THAT'S the right way!
The Golden Rule....do I need to explain it?

+1. In addition, how can you say you "know" that? I don't even know what my own approach would be to a particular song I haven't played until I am in the midst of it. How can you know how someone else will play something just because you heard them play before?

 

[JAUQO III-X]

everyone has a way of doing it and no one way is the "right" way- unless you're the one playing at the time.

Mike if that's the case why do a lot of players quickly comment about how a player should have played the line? Or the player who is complaining just know that they would make the bass line so much better.

Or the "boss" tells you how to do it. Then THAT'S the right way!
The Golden Rule....do I need to explain it?

Whats funny is that a lot of times the bosses way doesn't necessarily make things sound better. And we know this but we're professional and we roll with the request.

 

[BlountEdge]

Players in earlier generations who played in dance bands had leaders who kept them in check, the same for a school band.

I totally agree. We also had great reference points all around us. Most recordings were played by full rhythm sections and most neighborhoods had local bands to inspire upcoming musicians and set the standards. I grew up in Jamaica, Queens where we practically had a band on every block. This environment spawned many, many great musicians and a style/sound that was indigenous to the area. Many other cities had similar or greater results (i.e., Detroit, Philly, Chicago, Dayton, etc.)

Things are drastically different these days. With the exception of the church experiences that someone mentioned, many (not all) young R&B musicians are developing without the benefit of constant interplay with other musicians. R&B "bands" are pretty obsolete.

Many touring artists are drawing from this talent pool and the results are sometimes inconsistent.

 

[TheVoiceless]

Sorry to go off topic a bit, but as someone who is looking into buying a Lakland, what is the main difference in the Skyline models for their more expensive models?

 

[mstott25]

The most interesting thing I've noticed is how kats are so quick to say how they would have approached the bass line so different, which would automatically make the song so much better. And they espresso how the bass line in question is just not the bass line for the song.

I agree. It reminds me of when Andrew Gouche was the MD for Chaka Khan and a bunch of people decided to talk about how he was too busy, played too many notes, pissed off Prince etc. and then Gouche finally showed up on Talkbass. When Andrew Gouche plays, people should just shutup and listen. I'm all for free speech and this is a public forum and the internet and yadda yadda yadda but at some point somebody has got to stand up to ask, "and who might you be?" There is a difference between sitting at a jazz club and telling your buddies that you don't prefer this or that and making a public statement for all to see openly, including the artist/musician we're discussing. A certain level of respect should be shown to any of these players that we're talking about like this.

It's the internet, maybe people feel like that by criticizing a bass player on a gig they'll never have they've somehow put themselves on that players level.

I remember all of us who grew up with Tommy Kennedy back in St. Louis snarking about him playing too many notes, etc. I don't think Tommy really gave a rats **s about what the average bassist said about his music, and of course, every darn one of us wished we had the chops to overplay like that

Thing about Tom Kennedy is he can play all those notes and still sound musical, he's always connecting ideas and taking you somewhere. I have no idea how he's managed to play that well on the upright and electric in one lifetime.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

Mike if that's the case why do a lot of players quickly comment about how a player should have played the line? Or the player who is complaining just know that they would make the bass line so much better.

Sre we still talking about just this thread or has this gotten a larger scope?

No one in here is saying the original bassist was "wrong". Another thing to keep in mind is that no matter what anyone says they would like to hear differently, they're right...for them. No one is saying "i'd change this so YOU like it better."

 

[KJung]

I totally agree. We also had great reference points all around us. Most recordings were played by full rhythm sections and most neighborhoods had local bands to inspire upcoming musicians and set the standards. I grew up in Jamaica, Queens where we practically had a band on every block. This environment spawned many, many great musicians and a style/sound that was indigenous to the area. Many other cities had similar or greater results (i.e., Detroit, Philly, Chicago, Dayton, etc.)

Things are drastically different these days. With the exception of the church experiences that someone mentioned, many (not all) young R&B musicians are developing without the benefit of constant interplay with other musicians. R&B "bands" are pretty obsolete.

Many touring artists are drawing from this talent pool and the results are sometimes inconsistent.

Yeah, not to get caught up in the 'back in the day' old guy talk, but I find it just amazing that there are SO few multi-night gigs. Everyone who could play reasonably well who came up in my era (I'm 53... so the mid 70's to late 80's were in my 'prime, young enough to be relevant' full time playing period) literally gigged 6 nights a week, every week, for YEARS in a row.. literally. And then, played pickup gigs on weekdays and Sundays. Now, a kid with a 'jazz degree' from a university (pretty much unheard of back then), plays twice a week, 45 weeks a year or so, and that's considered 'full time'.

It is what it is, but as you say, it is VERY hard to develop a sense of context and 'teamwork' as a rhythm section player without that.

 

[DWBass]

Many touring artists are drawing from this talent pool and the results are sometimes inconsistent.

And this really irks me! Can some of us non-Gospel cats get a chance!? If some of these artists would go to a place like Cafe Oasis in Baldwin, NY on a Sunday night, they be amazed at the talent there! And not just everyday folks. Folks who have toured with high profile, Platinum selling artists!

 

[Fretless5verfan]

I agree. It reminds me of when Andrew Gouche was the MD for Chaka Khan and a bunch of people decided to talk about how he was too busy, played too many notes, pissed off Prince etc. and then Gouche finally showed up on Talkbass. When Andrew Gouche plays, people should just shutup and listen. I'm all for free speech and this is a public forum and the internet and yadda yadda yadda but at some point somebody has got to stand up to ask, "and who might you be?" There is a difference between sitting at a jazz club and telling your buddies that you don't prefer this or that and making a public statement for all to see openly, including the artist/musician we're discussing. A certain level of respect should be shown to any of these players that we're talking about like this.

It's the internet, maybe people feel like that by criticizing a bass player on a gig they'll never have they've somehow put themselves on that players level.

This kills me. How is offering an opinion of anyone's playing disrespectful? What difference does it make if you're a legend or a nobody? There's a lot of psychology going on in some of these posts, man. It's a bass forum. I hardly think you have any proof to support "maybe people feel like that by criticizing a bass player on a gig they'll never have they've somehow put themselves on that players level." unless you feel that way...

 

[DWBass]

I agree. It reminds me of when Andrew Gouche was the MD for Chaka Khan and a bunch of people decided to talk about how he was too busy, played too many notes, pissed off Prince etc. and then Gouche finally showed up on Talkbass. When Andrew Gouche plays, people should just shutup and listen. I'm all for free speech and this is a public forum and the internet and yadda yadda yadda but at some point somebody has got to stand up to ask, "and who might you be?" There is a difference between sitting at a jazz club and telling your buddies that you don't prefer this or that and making a public statement for all to see openly, including the artist/musician we're discussing. A certain level of respect should be shown to any of these players that we're talking about like this.

I was one of those guys! But guess what? I've morphed into 'that' kind of player! LOL! Go figure! You see what open mindedness does? I even dig what the cat was doing in this thread's original video (not that I would play that way). But I get it!

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Sre we still talking about just this thread or has this gotten a larger scope?

No one in here is saying the original bassist was "wrong". Another thing to keep in mind is that no matter what anyone says they would like to hear differently, they're right...for them. No one is saying "i'd change this so YOU like it better."

It has now went in the direction of how some players have a tendency to feel that what they hear a bass playing on a track is some how not the right bass line. And of course they would make it better.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

It has now went in the direction of how some players have a tendency to feel that what they hear a bass playing on a track is some how not the right bass line. And of course they would make it better.

I know what you mean by that. I don't like it at all when someone says that a line or a technique is "not right." I could see how that could be deemed disrespectful. It's OK (to me) to not like it, or prefer it a different way, but saying it isn't "right" is a little ridiculous.