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Fretless boards: harder than CA or Epoxy, but still manageable? Does it exist?

#81
Wizzu said:
You can read my rant in my reply to the thread Is it necessary to coat a rosewood fretless fretboard?

So basically I had customers bringing me quite recent fretless basses (2 LTDs, 2 Schecters, 1 Yamaha, 1 Sire/Marcus Miller) with damaged "rosewood" fingerboards from rather limited use.

Turns out the "rosewoods" used, are way too soft to be considered proper wood for fretless boards.

Even after a proper CA (crazy gluen, super glue) treatement, they STILL are too soft. I tried Epoxy on the Yamaha, also too soft a result.

Darn. Excluding a board replacement, I find myself in a position where I can not satisfy my customers. I'm kinda forced to tell them, in some way or another, that their instrument... well... is a piece of crap (fingerboard-wise). Lol.

So my question is, does someone here know a manageable, not crazy expensive coating process ending up in something harder than CA and Epoxy?
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Why are you suddenly on the hook because the wood is too soft?

Did ANYONE consult the manufacturer on this problem?

I think it should have been explained that this is not a permanent fix, after all if the wood wore quickly the coating is only so hard.

Did you explain that this probably voided their warranty?

Did you recommend these brands?

Did you convert them to fretless?

You seem to be taking more responsibility for this than the originsl manufacturer, why?
 
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#82
CryingBass said:
+1. Give 'em stainless fretboards I say! ( hey, that's a TM if nobody's doing that yet :)

WMAW
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The Le Fay Remington Steele.
REMINGTON-STEELE ::
remington-steele_top.jpg
 
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#84
Wizzu said:
Turns out the "rosewoods" used, are way too soft to be considered proper wood for fretless boards.
Click to expand...

This was the case with my Warmoth fretless neck.
I bought it second hand (possibly 20+ years old) and it had deep wear marks making it unplayable. When my luthier went to level it he stated that "It's the softest piece of #### rosewood I've ever come across on a fretless....it should only have ever been used on a fretted neck".
This surprised me as I'd gotten the impression from TB that Warmoth necks were very high quality. In saying that the birds-eye maple neck wood looks fantastic and appears to be very stable.

He epoxied it and it is now very hard and shows almost no wear at all after 100's of hours of playing. It was the first time he'd tried epoxying and after doing so he said it will also be the last time he does it.:laugh:
 
#86
Wizzu said:
You can read my rant in my reply to the thread Is it necessary to coat a rosewood fretless fretboard?

So basically I had customers bringing me quite recent fretless basses (2 LTDs, 2 Schecters, 1 Yamaha, 1 Sire/Marcus Miller) with damaged "rosewood" fingerboards from rather limited use.

Turns out the "rosewoods" used, are way too soft to be considered proper wood for fretless boards.

Even after a proper CA (crazy gluen, super glue) treatement, they STILL are too soft. I tried Epoxy on the Yamaha, also too soft a result.

Darn. Excluding a board replacement, I find myself in a position where I can not satisfy my customers. I'm kinda forced to tell them, in some way or another, that their instrument... well... is a piece of crap (fingerboard-wise). Lol.

So my question is, does someone here know a manageable, not crazy expensive coating process ending up in something harder than CA and Epoxy?
Click to expand...
In 2012 I defretted my Tune TWB with a rosewood fingerboard.
I have always used rounds and I have never had any issues with softness and excessive wear.
And it was never coated with anything.

Seems to me it's a matter of technique.
 
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#87
Wizzu said:
You can read my rant in my reply to the thread Is it necessary to coat a rosewood fretless fretboard?

So basically I had customers bringing me quite recent fretless basses (2 LTDs, 2 Schecters, 1 Yamaha, 1 Sire/Marcus Miller) with damaged "rosewood" fingerboards from rather limited use.

Turns out the "rosewoods" used, are way too soft to be considered proper wood for fretless boards.

Even after a proper CA (crazy gluen, super glue) treatement, they STILL are too soft. I tried Epoxy on the Yamaha, also too soft a result.

Darn. Excluding a board replacement, I find myself in a position where I can not satisfy my customers. I'm kinda forced to tell them, in some way or another, that their instrument... well... is a piece of crap (fingerboard-wise). Lol.

So my question is, does someone here know a manageable, not crazy expensive coating process ending up in something harder than CA and Epoxy?
Click to expand...
You can apply the hardest coating you like but if the underlying material is not as hard it’s going to yield poor results.
 
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#88
selowitch said:
This makes me want to buy a Squier fretless with an ebonol board. The only trouble with those very nice basses is that they tend to weigh a lot.
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Get one, I really like mine, and the weight is OK. It came with rounds which have made some marks on the board but nothing that you can feel or hear. The marks would probably polish out, I want to put some flats on it so I'll try cleaning the marks off when I switch.
 
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#89
I've used automotive catalyzed urethane clear on all the fretless boards I've done. It doesn't even mar using round wounds. If you need something harder, there are specialized clears that are as hard as glass. Some are called graffiti clears. Never had any luck with CA and I found that epoxy wasn't that hard. My current fretless has a rosewood board. Another one I did had a maple board. Did it on ebony one too. All have held up great.
 
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#90
Thumpin6string said:
I've used automotive catalyzed urethane clear on all the fretless boards I've done. It doesn't even mar using round wounds. If you need something harder, there are specialized clears that are as hard as glass. Some are called graffiti clears. Never had any luck with CA and I found that epoxy wasn't that hard. My current fretless has a rosewood board. Another one I did had a maple board. Did it on ebony one too. All have held up great.
Click to expand...



Could always use Bondo
 
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#91
Definitely not a luthier here, but I've got 40+ years of woodworking hobby experience. Consider this:

This has been said, but not followed up on. If the substrate of the finish (the rosewood) really is soft, it will be essentially like putting a nice hard finish on a sponge. If you press hard enough, or over a small enough area, no matter what kind of thin layer you put on it, eventually the finish will crack and break down unless it is really flexible. Or unless you get it really thick. And even then they can separate. So the property you need is toughness, not so much hardness.

I have used a product on older, partly rotten wood that has a strong penetrating carrier and a very hard resin component that gets drawn relatively deep into the wood (like maybe 3/8" into old floor joists): Minwax High Performance Wood Hardener. It turns the surface into a plastic rock; it's actually hard to sand and machine. Basically you've made something like carbon fiber or fiberglass, where the wood is the fiber part.

Ideal? No, there are drawbacks.

The wood will expand some, and it really darkens the surface. Both not good in this case. But I don't know anything else like it. It's also got ketones (Acetone) as the carrier, rather nasty stuff; don't snort or taste it, and limit breathing the vapors!!! Here's a link:

Minwax High Performance Wood Hardener - Harden Wood | Minwax

The other issue is that rosewood is an "oily wood", and by it's nature it doesn't allow most things to penetrate very deeply. Maybe bleaching and alcohol beforehand would lessen the impact of darkening and not penetrating, that would have to be tested on a scrap piece, but I wouldn't get hopeful.

Just my two cents; and there may be other products out there that are similar but more suitable.

Edit: It also instantly dissolves any plastic it comes in contact with, things like inlays and side markers may come off, whatever it touches is pretty much permanent.
 
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#92
Watchootognbout said:
In 2012 I defretted my Tune TWB with a rosewood fingerboard.
I have always used rounds and I have never had any issues with softness and excessive wear.
And it was never coated with anything.

Seems to me it's a matter of technique.
Click to expand...
It's quite ok. I don't know, but maybe you play your bass 20 minutes a day. This is not offending, just opinion.
 
#93
Sorry for being skeptical, but this just doesnt add up.


Im sure they’re out there, but rosewood fretless boards on a budget bass? Where?

Im not ever looking for fretless basses, but i dont think i’ve seen a rosewood one.

You must have a lot of customers if 6 of them are fretless bass players...and then they all have these instruments with rosewood boards AND they’re all going bad.

I need to see some pics to figure out if any of this makes sense.
 
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#94
It is odd hearing fretless slab players talking about wearing out fingerboards when upright players have been doing fine with them for 400 years.....

What about trying phenolic for the fingerboard? I've got a LOT of it in the shop right now- six 4x8 sheets(!). If you are interested, cover the shipping and I'll send some for you to experiment with.

It is crazy expensive on the commercial market, but it is made near here, so we have the local secret handshake and get it for around 1/150th of the retail price.
 
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#99
Wizzu said:
You can read my rant in my reply to the thread Is it necessary to coat a rosewood fretless fretboard?

So basically I had customers bringing me quite recent fretless basses (2 LTDs, 2 Schecters, 1 Yamaha, 1 Sire/Marcus Miller) with damaged "rosewood" fingerboards from rather limited use.

Turns out the "rosewoods" used, are way too soft to be considered proper wood for fretless boards.

Even after a proper CA (crazy gluen, super glue) treatement, they STILL are too soft. I tried Epoxy on the Yamaha, also too soft a result.

Darn. Excluding a board replacement, I find myself in a position where I can not satisfy my customers. I'm kinda forced to tell them, in some way or another, that their instrument... well... is a piece of crap (fingerboard-wise). Lol.

So my question is, does someone here know a manageable, not crazy expensive coating process ending up in something harder than CA and Epoxy?
Click to expand...
Saw this post the other day;
Rocklite: The Latest Synthetic Ebony For Fingerboards
Food for thought if a thin veneer would do the job?
 
#100
MVE said:
I’m not an expert, but I believe epoxy comes in differing levels of final hardness. I believe WestSystems has a spec sheet listing them on their website.

Also, Polyurethane for bowling alleys is supposed to be very very tough.

Did you wet the boards down with acetone first? This helps the epoxy to really draw into the wood grain.
Click to expand...
Michael Pedulla used some type of Poly on his Buzz fingerboards. My PentaBuzz was about 15 years old before I had to get him to refinish it!
 

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