Fretless-Lined or unlined?

[cassius987]

Lines on a fretless aren't entirely accurate depending on how you intonate the strings. They go sharp or flat above the 12th fret... this is detailed in Kringel's Fretless Bass book.

To me this issue a highly moot point. I can't look at my fingers when I'm playing, because I'm singing and because of the way the bass is oriented, so I do it by ear and the occasional glance at a side dot as frame of reference. Lines would be useless to me so I go for the more aesthetically-pleasing unlined stuff.

 

[SCMan88]

Thanks for the helpful comments .

I saw once that someone wrote that it is also good to play with a tuner opened up so I can know if I'm in tune or not.
Probably I saw it in this thread,lol.

But still,is it good to use it for the start?
As a little help?
And I'm willing to put as much effort as I can to get used to unlined fretless,as it also might be my only bass.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Use any help you can get at first. The goal is to put your hands in the right place- anything that helps you remember where to put your hands is a good thing.

 

[Antny]

Can't speak for Gary, but if you check out Jaco's interviews etc it becomes pretty clear that the lines were critically important to his approach. At least, that has been my take. YMMV.

Which may or may not be relevant. I mean a given player's approach and material is what it is. Whatever Jaco or Gary did/do is only relevant if you are interested in their technique. Valid techniques with no lines (Steve Bailey) are also out there. The more the better. Want to develop new approaches? Go for it. I'm behind it. Just don't waste your time dissing other approaches.

I'm not dissing any techniques. Just offering my own opinion based on what worked for me.

 

[Antny]

No, it won't, and your advice is flawed. Practice will make you a better bassist- nothing more. If you were forced to become a better player/listener when playing an unlined, then it was because you were failing to do what you needed to when using a lined fretless. And if you can force yourself to do it on unlined, then you can force yourself to do it on lined. Don't blame a bass for your own faults. Not to mention if that if there was any truth to it, the number of unlined players with great intonation with be far greater than the number of lined players with great intonation, which is obviously not the case (some instructors like Steve Lawson has said it's usually quite the opposite). The time and effort you put in is the only thing that will force you to get better.

I was relying on the lines to position my fingers. When I switched to unlined, it forced me to listen better. If this means that playing unlined made me stop doing it wrong and instead do things right, then it made me a better player didn't it? Yes, switching to unlined made me a better player whether anyone thinks so or not. Thanks.

 

[MD]

No, Spade is right - it's not a flaw, it's just a different marking system.

No, they're in a _different_ place. Like any marking system, you have to learn to use it. If you don't know how to use it, that's your fault, not the bass's fault.

May be different from the norm, but as long as they line up to note positions somewhere, it's not flawed.

LS

One more attempt, than we peacefully agree to disagree...

In the above photo, regarding the side dot position markers, not fret markers: if you played a C on the dot, would you be in tune with the piano player? (Maybe this is where I'm not getting my point across)

I do agree with you though, the markings are in a different place. In the photo, they're location relates to a fretted bass.
On a fretless neck they're inaccurate.

So once more...
If I'm going to shell out high end cash for a fretless, I want my side dots to accurately represent the position on the board, regardless of fret lines.

Oh... as far as I'm concerned, lined vs unlined is a non issue. We all do what works for us in the end

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I was relying on the lines to position my fingers. When I switched to unlined, it forced me to listen better. If this means that playing unlined made me stop doing it wrong and instead do things right, then it made me a better player didn't it? Yes, switching to unlined made me a better player whether anyone thinks so or not. Thanks.

No, it didn't. You did. You didn't have to listen better when switching to unlined. You didn't have to rely on lines when playing on lined. It was all you. You could have made yourself better the same way on the lined, or switched to unlined and stayed too reliant on visual cues/staring at the fingerboard (lines are just one part of the available cues). You made yourself better- the bass did nothing. People are far to quick to not own their faults or their triumphs.

 

[unclejane]

Just to add one more unsolicited comment from the wars: I see more than a few posts where cats are saying that the mix is really dense and they have trouble hearing themselves - so the lines help.

One thing I have found is that there comes a point where the fretless just simply isn't worth it. This is especially true with heavy guitar wash. I just leave the fretless home when the guitars insist on taking up all the real estate. Just not worth it for me. Here in Phoenix I find this to often be the case. Sad but true. It takes a guitarist who is actually aware of the mix to give the fretless room to breath. Marvelous when it happens, but I don't spend any more time worrying about it these days. That's why Leo invented frets! IMO/YMMV.

Heh. This is one of the nice things about the fretless - it forcibly keeps me from playing gigs like this. If it's such a mess of noise that I'm just a monkey pushing strings down on strips of metal, I'd rather pack up and go home.

I honestly hated this even when I played fretted, but with fretted I didn't have an excuse to walk out. Now I do

LS

 

[Antny]

No, it didn't. You did. You didn't have to listen better when switching to unlined. You didn't have to rely on lines when playing on lined. It was all you. You could have made yourself better the same way on the lined, or switched to unlined and stayed too reliant on visual cues/staring at the fingerboard (lines are just one part of the available cues). You made yourself better- the bass did nothing. People are far to quick to not own their faults or their triumphs.

Yes you are 100% correct, I could have become better on lined. But I didn't become better until I went unlined, at the advice of my teacher because he saw that I was focussing on the lines to position myself, and couldn't stop doing that. Switching to unlined forced me to use my ears instead. I'm not blaming the bass, lol. It was me of course. But the fact that I could no longer rely on lines for proper positioning is what forced me to become a better player ("better" as defined by me: not reliant solely on mechanical references to play accurately and intonated). I think someone else posted this analogy; I was using the lines as training wheels. My instructor removed them, and I found the freedom and joy of 2-wheels!

 

[bucephylus]

In the above photo, regarding the side dot position markers, not fret markers: if you played a C on the dot, would you be in tune with the piano player? (Maybe this is where I'm not getting my point across)

Yeah, the Net is not the greatest communications medium...

Yes, we're actually saying the same thing. Several of us have been trying to explain that the marking scheme you are calling wrong developed that way from the early defretted instruments. As a reference we all understood that the witness points were the lines and NOT the dots. Of course the dots can NOT be used as witness points. We all get that. They still serve as a relative orientation marker, same as they do on fretted. Its OK for you to not like that marking scheme. Many long time players simply got used to it. I mean, we're talking about somewhere around 20 years that was the standard. Perfectly OK to prefer something else; its all good. Use whatever works.

 

[FretlessMainly]

If you have to ask, get lines. (In my opinion) there is no disadvantage to having lines, only advantage.

Well, eveyone's different. I see things the exact opposite. There are no advantages to lines, only disadvantages:

1. Lines impart a false sense of proper intonation that isn't there. Due to the nature of a fretless bass, setting the bass' open string/octave intonation isn't quite the same and isn't nearly as important as on a fretted bass. If you like your action high like many of us who also play upright, you'll see an even bigger difference. Thus, individual pitch adjustments must be done by ear from string to string.

2. The existence of fretlines generally results in the placement of side dots at mid-"fret" rather than where the fret would be. This is important because of:

3. In normal standing playing position, you'll need to crane your neck to see the fretlines, especially on the D and G strings where you would need them most. Neck pain will surely follow...

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

No disadvantages there for me.
1. You have to use your ear no matter what kind of fretless you use. The lines just give a really good estimate of a place to put your finger. For me, a good visual idea vs. no visual idea is always preferable.
2. My fretlesses have the side dots located at the proper intonation point- directly under the fretline.
3. I don't, and neither do many to most other players (Kael mentioned he doesn't either in this thread).

Lines also give a more accurate visual cue when your ears can't be relied on due to poor sound, ear fatigue (which happens to me often enough), illness, etc. And as I've mentioned, side dots become next to useless on the treble side of the upper register of extended range basses, so lines/position dots again become very useful, particularly in an area of the bass where intonating properly is at its most difficult.

 

[FretlessMainly]

As I posted, everyone's different. For me, the three points I posted hold true. I found it far more valuble and permanent to teach my hand how to account for changes in parallax error (from string to string and position to position) relative to the side dots by using my ear and not using a line that will possibly lie to me if the string to string intonation is off a bit, which is very common on fretless due to the distance required to stop a string.

But hell, I rely on side dots as a starting point, so we all need someone we can lean on, as the kids used to say.

 

[Antny]

As I posted, everyone's different. For me, the three points I posted hold true. I found it far more valuble and permanent to teach my hand how to account for changes in parallax error (from string to string and position to position) relative to the side dots by using my ear and not using a line that will possibly lie to me if the string to string intonation is off a bit, which is very common on fretless due to the distance required to stop a string.

But hell, I rely on side dots as a starting point, so we all need someone we can lean on, as the kids used to say.

^ I agree.

 

[bucephylus]

It would probably help for everyone to be able to hear everyone else's playing; and that would clear a lot of things up. Web isn't quite there yet.

 

[MD]

It would probably help for everyone to be able to hear everyone else's playing; and that would clear a lot of things up. Web isn't quite there yet.

Ok...
Invalid Link Removed

 

[BioDriver]

I say unlined, but I began playing on an upright and personally find lines on a fretless to be weird.

 

[Mushroo]

Well, eveyone's different. I see things the exact opposite. There are no advantages to lines, only disadvantages:

1. Lines impart a false sense of proper intonation that isn't there. Due to the nature of a fretless bass, setting the bass' open string/octave intonation isn't quite the same and isn't nearly as important as on a fretted bass. If you like your action high like many of us who also play upright, you'll see an even bigger difference. Thus, individual pitch adjustments must be done by ear from string to string.

If your lines are in the wrong place, then your intonation is off. Your tech can easily fix this with a small adjustment at the bridge.

2. The existence of fretlines generally results in the placement of side dots at mid-"fret" rather than where the fret would be. This is important because of:

The dots on my fretlesses are in exactly the same spot as on my fretted bass. They aren't pitch references and I don't find them confusing at all.

If your fretless has side dots at the fret locations that you use as pitch reference then I consider that "lined" whether the visual pitch references are actually lines, dots, stars, 4-leaf clovers, etc.

3. In normal standing playing position, you'll need to crane your neck to see the fretlines, especially on the D and G strings where you would need them most. Neck pain will surely follow...

I can see how this might be a problem, agreed. Which is why I advocate using primarily your ears and muscle memory. On my basses however (the "defretted" type) the lines are easily visible from above, no neck craning necessary.

 

[spade2you]

If your lines are in the wrong place, then your intonation is off. Your tech can easily fix this with a small adjustment at the bridge.

It is impossible for the all of the lines to be in a place of perfect pitch. Same goes with frets.

 

[Mushroo]

It is impossible for the all of the lines to be in a place of perfect pitch. Same goes with frets.

I agree 100% (being a big Bach fan). I guess my point was that a well-intonated fretless is easier to play in-tune than one that is not properly set up. If you play purely visually "by the lines" on a well-set up instrument then your intonation will be no worse than a fretted bass (which is "good enough" for most listeners) then as your ear improves you can make the small pitch corrections from "well tempered" to "perfect" (and maybe get funny looks from the guitar and piano players).