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Fretless-Lined or unlined?

#141
FretlessMainly said:
As I posted, everyone's different. For me, the three points I posted hold true. I found it far more valuble and permanent to teach my hand how to account for changes in parallax error (from string to string and position to position) relative to the side dots by using my ear and not using a line that will possibly lie to me if the string to string intonation is off a bit, which is very common on fretless due to the distance required to stop a string.

But hell, I rely on side dots as a starting point, so we all need someone we can lean on, as the kids used to say.
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The same adjustment can be made with a lined (adjusting by ear), although as I've always said, once you hit a sour note, it's too late. Even if your string intonation is off, making your lines inaccurate, you can still use them as permanent visual cues. If some dude messes with your bridge and suddenly playing a D on your G string requires you to fret a full finger width from the line, then the line still serves as a marking point to fret one finger width from. And I've never heard of anyone having an issue with bad intonation due to the string distance from the board, but then again most folks play fretless with very low action.

The point is that on a purely technical (not personal) level, the only disadvantage to a lined is that the lines may sink/raise differently than the fingerboard. Every other technical aspect is the same as unlined- it can be used in the exact same manner, and it also has added benefits in its additional visual cues. On a personal level, it may be inferior as some people get confused by the lines, some prefer the look of an unlined board, etc. But that's the person, not the bass. People put a lot of negatives toward lines that are simply matters of their own preference or faults.
 
#142
I always get the vibe that there is a "moral superiority" thing going on in these threads, but like FretlessMainly pointed out, a big bunch of us who can't get any use out of lines use side dots unashamedly. So for me it's just that simple, I work between my ear and the side dots, and I have repeatedly noticed that having lines around I wouldn't even be able to see while playing would be no help. One time I brought a lined fretless to a college jazz band rehearsal and did make a point of paying attention to the fret lines (yeah, I had to crane my neck to do it), that was probably my least-groovy day ever. I didn't keep that bass long (for other reasons).
 
#144
cassius987 said:
I always get the vibe that there is a "moral superiority" thing going on in these threads,
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There's always that, as well as in music in general. I just grow annoyed with the myths that get represented as fact. Much like 6 string basses, I think the bulk of opinions come from folks who don't play 'em.

I don't think you'll find dedicated fretless players who look down on lined or unlined players, but here, lined is cheating and unlined people can't play in tune. :hmm:
 
#145
Mushroo said:
If your lines are in the wrong place, then your intonation is off. Your tech can easily fix this with a small adjustment at the bridge.

If your fretless has side dots at the fret locations that you use as pitch reference then I consider that "lined" whether the visual pitch references are actually lines, dots, stars, 4-leaf clovers, etc.
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Well, I've been playing bass for over 30 years and I do all my intonation, truss rod, etc. adjustments myself, but I don't feel a need to adjust this. I'm used to the minor yet important idiosynchrasies of all my FLs.

To me, the major functional difference between dots at the pitch and lines is that with dots only, all one has is their ear to train the left hand to account for parallax error from string to string and position to position. If this premise is accepted, then dots cannot be considered "lined."
 
#148
You do not see many lined Upright Bases. :p

I play my Upright Bass with my fingers, my heart, and my ears. I never use my eyes.

No superiority thing going for me but IMO lines are a speed bump for ears. In other words they slow down the inevitable.

I get the point about they help you be in the right place but your ears determine that not your eyes.
 
#149
SCMan88 said:
If the bass has Rosewood fingerboard,and I use Flatwounds,should I get Epoxy coating,or it still ok if I use Flatwounds?
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It really depends on the sound you want. Me, I like wood, so I much prefer an unfinished board. Which is good, because I also prefer the deep, round, low-mid growl/mwah of flats.

If you'd prefer the more zingy, upper-mid type of mwah that you get with rounds, then finished is the way to go.

These are all generalizations on my part, since one can get some of both types of tone from either set-up, but I'm just trying to differentiate the biggest differences between the two approaches. So, I guess the question you need to ask yourself first is: do you use flats because the board is unfinished, or do you use flats because you prefer the sound of flats?
 
#150
This is reeeeaaaallll easy OP. Play one of each. One will stand out and "talk" to you. Get that one. Done.

I have a lined fretless, and I need it. I need that reference point to start from. I don't buy that "unlined trains your ears better" crap. There's nothing preventing you from using your ears with a lined fretless. If you feel like your ears need "training", close your eyes. Instant unlined.

I never understood the "use your ears not your eyes" argument anyway. Will there be a test later where I have to play something perfectly, but I can't use my lined fretless? No? Then I'll stick with lined thank you, it works better for me. I use a combination of ears and eyes when playing fretless, and believe it or not I have the ability to correct a note the same as guys without lines.

Don't let anyone "shame" you into getting an unlined. If playing an unlined is harder for you, well, there's no nobility in taking the harder road...it's just harder. The reverse is equally true if you find playing the lined to be more challenging. There is NO right or wrong answer to this question, just what's right for you.

Good luck bro, and enjoy your journey.:)
 
#151
Wyrm74 said:
This is reeeeaaaallll easy OP. Play one of each. One will stand out and "talk" to you. Get that one. Done.

I have a lined fretless, and I need it. I need that reference point to start from. I don't buy that "unlined trains your ears better" crap. There's nothing preventing you from using your ears with a lined fretless. If you feel like your ears need "training", close your eyes. Instant unlined.

I never understood the "use your ears not your eyes" argument anyway. Will there be a test later where I have to play something perfectly, but I can't use my lined fretless? No? Then I'll stick with lined thank you, it works better for me. I use a combination of ears and eyes when playing fretless, and believe it or not I have the ability to correct a note the same as guys without lines.

Don't let anyone "shame" you into getting an unlined. If playing an unlined is harder for you, well, there's no nobility in taking the harder road...it's just harder. The reverse is equally true if you find playing the lined to be more challenging. There is NO right or wrong answer to this question, just what's right for you.

Good luck bro, and enjoy your journey.:)
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Thanks for the helpful comment :).
I'm thinking of getting a 6 string unlined bass(discontinued model heehee),and I'll see how much it can cost me to get it lined.
If it will be cheap,I guese I'll do it right away.
If it will be expensive...?I'll see if I can work that out.
:)

FretlessMainly said:
It really depends on the sound you want. Me, I like wood, so I much prefer an unfinished board. Which is good, because I also prefer the deep, round, low-mid growl/mwah of flats.

If you'd prefer the more zingy, upper-mid type of mwah that you get with rounds, then finished is the way to go.

These are all generalizations on my part, since one can get some of both types of tone from either set-up, but I'm just trying to differentiate the biggest differences between the two approaches. So, I guess the question you need to ask yourself first is: do you use flats because the board is unfinished, or do you use flats because you prefer the sound of flats?
Click to expand...

I'm thinking of using Flatwounds so I won't wear my fingerboard.
I really don't want my fingerboard to get much wear,because then its a headache getting it into a better condition,or just putting epoxy coating for it.

So if I do like Flatwounds+clear wood,and my fingerboard gets wear,then I might have to put epoxy cover,and that sucks!

And lets just say I prefer spending less money to make sure my bass ain't gonna die lol!
 
#154
The lines mean nothing. At best it is a acceptable approximation. The actual note, depending on where you are playing on the neck, will be either before or after the line. It is just as easy to approximate on your own.

As has been said before the entire set up of a lined fretless is disconcerting because they put the position dots on the top of the neck between the the lines like a fretted bass. Although you can get used to this it will be a constant annoyance.

IMO, no lines with position dots on top of the neck at "fret" points not in between. Then start developing your "ear". You will be a better player overall for the experience.

To me, using lines is "cheating" and from a purely cosmetic viewpoint detracts from the majestic look of a fretless.
 
#158
MD said:
Thanks much.
"Ear feedback loop"? Not familiar with that term.
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As the note develops, I can hear you adjusting pitch. Its a feed back loop all players deal with: start the note, hear it, adjust as necessary. Small adjustments, and done musically. No biggie, just a sign of someone using their ears. My first upright teacher, Bob Gladstone spent some time discussing it as part of lessons.

That style, BTW lends itself to that approach. I tend to just use an upright when I want that sound. No, it doesn't have lines.

I personally tend to use the fretless bass in a more R&B role where I want more punctuation in the lines. In that idiom, the upper register fills are shorter duration with not much time for the note to develop. That's here the marks on the board help me personally.
 
#159
Red Planet said:
No superiority thing going for me but IMO lines are a speed bump for ears. In other words they slow down the inevitable.
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Only if you're doing it wrong, which is of course the fault of the player and not the bass. That's like blaming gum if you can't walk and chew it at the same time.

I get the point about they help you be in the right place but your ears determine that not your eyes.
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The only thing that puts you in the right place is your hands. Whether you adjust your hands using just your ears, just your eyes, or both is up to you, but the fact remains that your eyes can put your hands in the right place. You can technically play fretless perfectly without even being able to hear if you use your eyes and a tuner. That's not ideal though :)
 

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