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Fretless out of tune?

#41
jmlee said:
You're lost in the woods. You come into a clearing where you find:

(i) an in-tune fretless bass player
(ii) an out-of-tune fretless bass player
(iii) Santa Claus

Q: Who do you ask for directions?

A: The out-of-tune fretless bass player. The other two are figments of your imagination.
Click to expand...

this made me laugh... there is a reason that Leo called his first bass, which had frets, the Precision Bass.

Still, to the OP, don't be discouraged. Put your fingers on the lines (that is where the frets would be if there were any), listen, adjust if needed and you'll get there.
 
#43
Mushroo said:
How do you practice along to the radio if the songs aren't A440? Do you re-tune your bass during the first verse and then join in on the second verse, or something like that? Do you play out of tune with the song and tolerate the sonic clash? Or do you think playing along to the radio is not a useful exercise? Not trying to be argumentative; genuinely curious your opinion as I know you are an experienced player. :)

The point of the exercise I recommended earlier (jamming along to random songs on the radio) is not to improve muscle memory. Rather, it is to improve the ear (which then in turn improves intonation).

Being able to play "in between the lines" on a fretless bass is also an incredibly useful skill to have if you ever play open mics or the like, where you need to back multiple acts who may or may not be tuned to the same pitch standard.
Click to expand...

A415 is the same pitch as Ab in A440 soooo
 
#44
Roger DeLarge said:
Hi! I just bought my first fretless that is lined and I just can't figure this cheap bass out! My problem is that when I tune the open strings perfectly, the rest of the neck is out off tune when I play between the lined frets. Which means I have to play on the lines to make it sound in tune. I figure this could mean that the lines are wrong and they should be painted slightly up the neck. But is there any solution to this? Tighten the neck relief or something?
Click to expand...
This is why fretless basses should not have fret lines. :laugh:
 
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#50
brianrost said:
There's a reason most fretless instruments have no lines: the lines can only be approximate. As you have probably noticed already, moving your fretting finger even a tiny amount changes the pitch. Use your ears.
Click to expand...
This.

Also, you have to remember that fretted instruments are tuned to an equal temperament. Equal temperament is an approximation of what is 'in tune.' Justonic tuning (Just intonation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is based on the natural frequencies produced by the instrument, and can be acheived with fretless instruments, where it cannot be with fretted. You can actually play more correctly in tune with a fretless instrument if your intonation is spot on. This is true for the major and minor 3rds, where the biggest differences between equal temperament and and justonic tuning are.
 
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#52
Ubersheist said:
You can actually play more correctly in tune with a fretless instrument if your intonation is spot on. This is true for the major and minor 3rds, where the biggest differences between equal temperament and and justonic tuning are.
Click to expand...

Actually, thirds are intervals where our sense of tuning allows more leeway, hence the perceived harmonic value of both major and minor thirds and the tuning variations of thirds in scales throughout the history of music. It's the "perfect" intervals with the smaller integer ratios (octaves, fifths and fourths) where our sense of tuning is more aware and where perfectly tuned intervals are easier to notice.

Otto
 
#53
ofajen said:
Actually, thirds are intervals where our sense of tuning allows more leeway, hence the perceived harmonic value of both major and minor thirds and the tuning variations of thirds in scales throughout the history of music. It's the "perfect" intervals with the smaller integer ratios (octaves, fifths and fourths) where our sense of tuning is more aware and where perfectly tuned intervals are easier to notice.

Otto
Click to expand...

And indeed the fifth is very obviously wrong in equal temperament....
 
#55
It may have been mentioned - But having the nut cut "right on" is critical for your intonation.
High cut nuts will make you "sharp out" . I have four fretless and find intonation or nut
issues bother me MORE on the fretless than my fretted basses! Took the nut slots
down some on all of them as they seem to be closer to a cut for a fretted .
 
#56
n1as said:
I disagree a bit. The lines are as accurate as frets but finger placement and how each player's technique affects the actual contact of the string with the fingerboard varies. So, yes you may have to alter your target but not because the lines are off.
Click to expand...

The lines are as accurate as the frets are on any fretted instrument.
All fretted instruments play slightly out of tune--- it's the nature of the beast(s).
 
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#57
Roger DeLarge said:
Hi! I just bought my first fretless that is lined and I just can't figure this cheap bass out! My problem is that when I tune the open strings perfectly, the rest of the neck is out off tune when I play between the lined frets. Which means I have to play on the lines to make it sound in tune. I figure this could mean that the lines are wrong and they should be painted slightly up the neck. But is there any solution to this? Tighten the neck relief or something?
Click to expand...

Adjust your bridge saddles
 
#58
I've also recently purchased a fretless bass and I'll share some tips about staying in tune.

1. Practice slowly and with a tuner as a reference.
2. Use open strings when possible. This really helps with training your ear to hear the correct pitch.
3. Don't try anything fancy. You'll have plenty of time to play "Teen Town" later.
4. Realize that you won't be perfect and its part of what makes fretless so unique. You have the ability to let the notes "breathe" a bit. You can slide in or out of tune where it's appropriate.
5. Listen to some great fretless players. Jaco, Pino, Gary Willis, Tony Levin, Jack Bruce, Jimmy Haslip etc.

Hopefully these help. I'm getting more confident and find that playing fretless has had a really positive effect on my approach with my fretted bass as well. It kind of forces my left hand to not get lazy.
 
#59
n1as said:
I disagree a bit. The lines are as accurate as frets but finger placement and how each player's technique affects the actual contact of the string with the fingerboard varies. So, yes you may have to alter your target but not because the lines are off.
Click to expand...
But not every fret is 100% accurate either. Typically the 12th fret/fretline is right on, but as you move away from there they'll get slightly off... The first fret is usually the worst offender, IME.
 
#60
The fret lines are where you want to be. Not between them. I have been playing fretless since 1976. My bass has side dots that are where the frets would be, but no lines. I sound awful on frets. A finger on the twelfth fret should match the big harmonic there, just like on a fretted bass. That's about as good as it gets, but don't worry about it, you'll know when you aren't on the money. You'll love the different tones you can get by doing different things with your neck fingers. Try using your picking fingers up by the twelfth fret to get the best growl
 
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