Fretless players -- Lines or no lines?

[blindeddie]

i agree. no lines because looking is a bad habit. my teacher would never let me look at my upright, and got pissed if i did. lines just encourage that bad habit. use your ears not your eyes.

 

[ClassicJazz]

Looking at the fingerboard is a bad habit, and having lines aids in that bad habit.

Dude, I sorry but that is just a dumb statement.

I've seen a fair amount of some of the greatest bass players play live, and you know what. Most of them look at their fingerboards!

How's looking at your fingerboard a bad habit?? There is no written law saying you should not look!! Maybe this should be tested on the mythbusters!

I always hear people say play with your ears. All well and good, but how is your ears going to tell your fingers were to go. And if your ears hear that you are off, thats good......but the damage is done allready.

And those playing un-lined fretless basses, not looking and playing past the 12th fret.......good chance they are out of tune!!

 

[Tony G]

BS.

The whole "don't look at your instrument while playing" is a fallacy established by rockers who thought it looked cooler to stare at the crowd and holds no water in nearly any other musical genre.

What I said has nothing to do with looking cool. It is my opinion that with any fretless instrument, listening to the notes and making sure intonation is correct by ear and playing by feel is a better learning tool than staring at lines on a fingerboard. I'm not saying you can't look at a blank finger board to make sure you are approximately in the right place, but if you rely on lines for intonation, I don't feel you will learn the nuances of the instrument as well as if you just played by sound and feel. This is all completely my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[andrewd]

I like how Godins have lines only on the side. It's sorta in between

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

i agree. no lines because looking is a bad habit. my teacher would never let me look at my upright, and got pissed if i did. lines just encourage that bad habit. use your ears not your eyes.

Your ears will only tell your if you're in tune or not AFTER you play the note. Your hands are the only thing that will get you to play with proper intonation. This is by one of two methods- either looking at the fingerboard, or developing your muscle memory so you "know" where your fingers are supposed to go. Your muscle memory can develop much more quickly if you use your ears as well as your eyes (everyone's heard of hand/eye coordination I assume).

Hey Richard, at least it's been a couple months this time

 

[Tony G]

Dude, I sorry but that is just a dumb statement.

I've seen a fair amount of some of the greatest bass players play live, and you know what. Most of them look at their fingerboards!

How's looking at your fingerboard a bad habit?? There is no written law saying you should not look!! Maybe this should be tested on the mythbusters!

I always hear people say play with your ears. All well and good, but how is your ears going to tell your fingers were to go. And if your ears hear that you are off, thats good......but the damage is done allready.

And those playing un-lined fretless basses, not looking and playing past the 12th fret.......good chance they are out of tune!!

Your right, my statement wasn't made correctly. I look at my fingerboard on occasion to make sure I am in the appropriate area, but I rely on sound and feel to make sure my intonation is correct.

 

[Blake Bass]

Unlined may look cool but the majority of fretless players I've heard who play "in tune" use lines. If you play fretless as your main instrument then I'm sure you could get used to playing without lines. I play fretted 99% of the time on gigs so on the rare occasion that I break out the fretless I need the lines.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

It is my opinion that with any fretless instrument, listening to the notes and making sure intonation is correct by ear and playing by feel is a better learning tool than staring at lines on a fingerboard. I'm not saying you can't look at a blank finger board to make sure you are approximately in the right place, but if you rely on lines for intonation, I don't feel you will learn the nuances of the instrument as well as if you just played by sound and feel.

This would only hold true if someone isn't capable of listening and looking at the same time. Some people can't, I'm sure- sort of like the "can't chew gum and walk at the same time" thing. Otherwise it's a complete non-issue. It's like saying someone can't learn the nuances of walking unless they can walk with their eyes closed. Cute in theory, makes no sense in the real world.

That's not to say that people shouldn't play exactly what they want to, but people curiously attach these stigmas to lined fretlesses for no reason at all and propogate these fallacies.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

What I said has nothing to do with looking cool. It is my opinion that with any fretless instrument, listening to the notes and making sure intonation is correct by ear and playing by feel is a better learning tool than staring at lines on a fingerboard. I'm not saying you can't look at a blank finger board to make sure you are approximately in the right place, but if you rely on lines for intonation, I don't feel you will learn the nuances of the instrument as well as if you just played by sound and feel. This is all completely my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

The only thing is that reality disagrees with your opinion. If what you say were true, then unlined players would all have better intonation across the board than lined players, and lined players would all have faulty intonation. Trust me, they don't. Ask Gary Willis and Jimmy Haslip, for starters.

And there's nothing wrong with looking at your FB either. Whatever tool helps you play better should be available to you for use. If smell would help, you should consider using that too.

It's one thing to have a personal preference. It's another to say that what you like is what everybody should do. If people get good results--and they inarguably do--then it just doesn't matter.

 

[Tony G]

This would only hold true if someone isn't capable of listening and looking at the same time. Some people can't, I'm sure- sort of like the "can't chew gum and walk at the same time" thing. Otherwise it's a complete non-issue. It's like saying someone can't learn the nuances of walking unless they can walk with their eyes closed. Cute in theory, makes no sense in the real world.

That's not to say that people shouldn't play exactly what they want to, but people curiously attach these stigmas to lined fretlesses for no reason at all and propogate these fallacies.

Since you left it out when you quoted me..

This is all completely my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

but I rely on sound and feel to make sure my intonation is correct.

Yes, and so does any fretless player who's any good, regardless of whether they use lines or not.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Hey Richard, at least it's been a couple months this time

I know ... what took so long?

 

[joelb79]

Playing fretless is all about feel and sound. Looking at the fingerboard is a bad habit, and having lines aids in that bad habit.

I would lean towards this. so +1.

 

[Tony G]

Yes, and so does any fretless player who's any good, regardless of whether they use lines or not.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I feel that lines are like training wheels, and I simply think that you will learn to balance yourself a bit quicker falling off a bike a couple of times without training wheels rather than riding around for a year or two with them.

 

[ClassicJazz]

If people get good results--and they inarguably do--then it just doesn't matter.

Well said!

All I know is when I am soloing past the 12th....I am glad the lines are there!!

 

[Tony G]

I want to make it clear that I have nothing against anyone who would choose to play a fretless with lines. I learned to play without lines, and that is what works for me.

 

[BassChuck]

Unlined may look cool but the majority of fretless players I've heard who play "in tune" use lines.

This may be true, but doesn't have to be the case. If players using fretless instrument really needed lines to play in tune that would change about 300 years of orchestral tradition and performance.

Correct and consistant hand position, and serious practice is the answer. I know a good number of players who use fretted and never practice, the only time the instrument is in their hands is at band rehearsals and gigs. IMO that's a shoddy way to be a musician, but with fretted is it possible providing that the music they play is familiar.

Fretless bass is a different instrument from fretted. There is a lot that is the same, but you may have to deal with it in different terms than fretted. In other words you may have to spend more time with it than fretted bass.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I feel that lines are like training wheels, and I simply think that you will learn to balance yourself a bit quicker falling off a bike a couple of times without training wheels rather than riding around for a year or two with them.

If that's how YOU feel, then it's good FOR YOU to go unlined. Seriously. It's a personal choice. But all you have to do is look around to see that your own preferences can't possibly apply to everybody. My experience and observation, along with that of others, says that your opinion, expressed as a general rule, is just flat out wrong. As your personal preference, it's not wrong at all. As a general statement about what's better for everybody else, it is.

 

[lowstar]

arghhhh ! i wanted to vote for "no lines" and pressed the "yup, gotta have ´em" button !

anyway, NO lines for me. though my first one was lined, and it did help, but all the others afterwards, no lines. my current two beauties are an el capitan acoustic fl 5er, and a MM black (poplar body) 5er ray, that one only has little dots on the side for 3/5/7/9/12 pos. i like that the best.

cheers,
lowstar

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I feel that lines are like training wheels, and I simply think that you will learn to balance yourself a bit quicker falling off a bike a couple of times without training wheels rather than riding around for a year or two with them.

Except that playing a bass with no lines isn't the end goal for most people, so lines aren't "training" you for anything- they're just what you play with. Hell, of the few unlined fretless players out there with great intonation, Michael Manring is the best of them, and even he has suggested that starting out with lines would be a better choice multiple times in his forum (went so far as to say he wished he had them to begin with, and wanted to convert his main fretless to lined at one point but ran out of money).

The goal in the end is the sound, not the instrument.