Fretless - position markers, fret lines, and such

[james condino]

Here's the only thing I'm fully confident in, for a very short run, limited production modification of a standard product there's nearly zero possibility they will pay an NC tech to reprogram the side neck position dots.

At the factory that I worked in, that guy called the neck: "the handle"....

 

[Acoop]

My 2-cents, after 43-years at fretless bass.
In late 77, beneath a full moon, I pulled the frets from my only bass at the time, a 66-P-bass. ... What an eye opener that was. ... One thing I realized is, I had to get my left hand finger positioning together and fast. ... After, I did, I removed that from the equation because, this was a time we were playing 4-hours a night, 6-days a week, running around the stage in a fast paced band. ... Plus, I sang. ... On stage, all I needed was a quick visual point, when I heard my tuning was out then, I trusted my hand position. ... Having the trust in yourself not to have to stare at your hand all the time you're playing fretless takes a long time, no short cuts, so, keep practicing.

 

[JRA]

I'm wondering, for those who play fretless, what kind of bass do you play, is it lined or unlined, what do the dots and/or lines mark (where you aim with the middle of your finger or where the fret/witness point should be)?

on an unlined fretless, the side dots can be very useful when properly placed: if you place your own = you can place them where they work for you given your 'view', the parallax involved (can be 'averaged', so to speak), and the width of your finger pads when stopping a note (again; an average). the dots will be in about the same place as factory dots (+/-) but tweaked for the specific player. if you aren't sure you want to commit: temporary dots can be used. it may be worth experimenting to see if this helps. i do this because factory placed dots do not reflect my use, view, fingerpad size, technique, etc. they're close, but no cigar.

i only play fretless. each instrument is configured/modified in this way. (i actually have a 'personal template' for 34" scale instruments.) good luck with your side dot issues!

 

[Wisebass]

Hi BaileyMan

I'm wondering, for those who play fretless, what kind of bass do you play, is it lined or unlined, what do the dots and/or lines mark (where you aim with the middle of your finger or where the fret/witness point should be)?

My mainplayer is a lined fretless with side dots that are on the lines (not between them)

Lines or dots can give you some help when you start on fretless,

because you will have to develop your left hand technique. (when your technique isn't perfect before)

A video that explains it:



btw: the right Tabs for fretless will also help

greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[Abner]

How is it that every fretless thread devolves into a must-have-lines-to-play-in-tune versus we-don't-need-no-steenkin'-lines argument. That was not even the OPs question. It was just about the differences between the measurement to the 3rd fret, dot, and line on three different basses.

But never did answer the question as to what make/manufacture each of these basses is (i.e., if one is a Fender and the other a Rickenbacker, then they will be different). And the unlined-which-is-now-lined bass, who put the lines in? And are all the lines just ahead of the dots or just the third stop?

Another thought comes to mind. Mass produced guitars and basses usually have nuts with slots invariably too high rather than too low. And a mass produced fretless bass will likely have the same nut as the fretted counterpart. In other words, way too high. So maybe they compensate by putting the 3rd dot behind it's ideal spot to get back in tune. It's the absolutely wrong way to go about it, but there's all manner of whacky stuff out there...

Let's see some pics of these dots, lines, and measurements.

 

[bobyoung53]

I was never going to be a fretless player, but one of my local heroes growing up was one the best players I ever heard, and faultless as a fretless player.

This is in the late 70's, and had ordered an NS Spector from Stuart himself out of a little ad in the back of GUITAR PLAYER ( . . . this is what we did in a pre-internet world . . .), and Stuart advised he only had some fretted axes in stock. They worked it out where Stuart pulled the frets, smoothed the fingerboard, and inlaid the fret slots with wood strips.

First Spector (hell, the first handbuilt bass) I ever saw, PJ EMG's, the whole nine yards. My friend remarked he did it by playing exactly on top of the fret lines with a light touch, and not having been an upright player, he said he'd have not wanted to attempt an unlined one. It must have worked, as his pitch was always flawless.

I honestly can't figure out how players use the lines in lined fretless unless they stare at the neck all night while playing, you have to hunch forward to even see them when you're standing up.

 

[Killing Floor]

How is it that every fretless thread devolves into a must-have-lines-to-play-in-tune versus we-don't-need-no-steenkin'-lines argument. That was not even the OPs question. It was just about the differences between the measurement to the 3rd fret, dot, and line on three different basses.

But never did answer the question as to what make/manufacture each of these basses is (i.e., if one is a Fender and the other a Rickenbacker, then they will be different). And the unlined-which-is-now-lined bass, who put the lines in? And are all the lines just ahead of the dots or just the third stop?

Another thought comes to mind. Mass produced guitars and basses usually have nuts with slots invariably too high rather than too low. And a mass produced fretless bass will likely have the same nut as the fretted counterpart. In other words, way too high. So maybe they compensate by putting the 3rd dot behind it's ideal spot to get back in tune. It's the absolutely wrong way to go about it, but there's all manner of whacky stuff out there...

Let's see some pics of these dots, lines, and measurements.

Measured from the nut, original '73 Fender P fretless. 34" standard scale. "Lower" 12 dot is the midspan at 17" from nut and bridge roller, at this lower dot the tuning is the open octave. Intonation set to "lower" dot aligns all the remaining neck markers at pitch. Setting intonation to the middle "gap" pulls the 3,5,7,9 side dots increasingly out of position relative to pitch. The upper dot of the same marking is almost 80 cents sharp. Make of this what you will. So in my amateur observation it appears the lower octave dot is the intended target. When intonated to the bottom dot, all the other side markers are in position. Make sense?

 

[Abner]

Yes it does make sense. But it seems a very strange way to do things. If you use one of the dots at the 12th stop, how do you know to use the first or second dot (without measuring)? Using the middle of the two dots just seems like the obvious thing to me.

How about the one with added lines? Are all the lines slightly ahead of the dots or just at the 3rd stop?

 

[Killing Floor]

The whole thing seems off. Who knows. I happen to secretly enjoy the "human" flaws in some of my instruments.
Why not use a single dot or a perpendicular line as a side marker? Anything but 2 dots 1/4" apart. But isn't the weirdness one of the many hidden features of basses anyway?
Nice neck in your avatar by the way.

 

[Killing Floor]

At the factory that I worked in, that guy called the neck: "the handle"....

That's funny. I sometimes call my instrument "my handle" but that's a habit I picked from friends. As in "I'll grab my handle and show you some of the ways I will never be as good as Lester Flatt".

 

[bobyoung53]

My 2-cents, after 43-years at fretless bass.
In late 77, beneath a full moon, I pulled the frets from my only bass at the time, a 66-P-bass. ... What an eye opener that was. ... One thing I realized is, I had to get my left hand finger positioning together and fast. ... After, I did, I removed that from the equation because, this was a time we were playing 4-hours a night, 6-days a week, running around the stage in a fast paced band. ... Plus, I sang. ... On stage, all I needed was a quick visual point, when I heard my tuning was out then, I trusted my hand position. ... Having the trust in yourself not to have to stare at your hand all the time you're playing fretless takes a long time, no short cuts, so, keep practicing.

I also got my first one in 1977 and by 1980 I was also playing 4-5 nights a week and singing, you learn fast that way, my intonation was better back then than it is now but it comes right back. You could not tell I was playing a fretless unless you looked at my neck or I slid, they were not very common back then at least in my area.

 

[BurningSkies]

I've had both. My first was an unlined MIJ fretless Jazz bass. It had position markers on the 'fretting' location. It worked just fine for me at the time.

I now have a fretless 'conversion' that has lines (where the frets once were) and retains the standard position markers. I'm also really happy with this, more so given the bass has a few things that might make an un-marked board even more difficult. It's a fanned-fretless (aka multi-scale) and it's 34"-37" so pretty long scale. Having lines I find helped me get back on board with good intonation and I specifically made sure when the inlay work was done that the material showed at the side of the neck, so I don't have to crane over to get reference if I need it. I've been playing it a lot and my muscle memory is pretty decent at this time, but I totally believe in treating fretless playing as just 'bass playing' and let the other stuff sort out without any of that 'play in the dark' stuff.

 

[SteveCS]

...

Let's see some pics of these dots, lines, and measurements.

OK, here goes, from nut to 3rd stop, all are nominally 34" scale
First up, for reference, a 34"fretted StingRay, fret crown at just under 137.5. The correct position for a 34" scale is 137.414mm, so I'm not complaining.

Eko BX7, 1982, unlined, dot centred at a bit over 138.5mm;

EBMM StingRay, 1993, unlined, dot centred at a smidge shy of 137.0mm;

Warwick Corvette, 2008, unlined, dot centred at just over 136.5mm;

So that's a range of about 1mm either side of nominal, and these are all quality instruments. My experience is that 1mm either side at this stop equates to about +/-2.5 cents, which even a well trained ear is unlikely to complain about.

 

[luciens]

How is it that every fretless thread devolves into a must-have-lines-to-play-in-tune versus we-don't-need-no-steenkin'-lines argument. That was not even the OPs question. It was just about the differences between the measurement to the 3rd fret, dot, and line on three different basses.

It's like a law of the universe. Like the laws of physics and the speed of light and stuff; you just can't avoid it and in fact it's supposed to happen every time.

Another thought comes to mind. Mass produced guitars and basses usually have nuts with slots invariably too high rather than too low. And a mass produced fretless bass will likely have the same nut as the fretted counterpart. In other words, way too high. So maybe they compensate by putting the 3rd dot behind it's ideal spot to get back in tune. It's the absolutely wrong way to go about it, but there's all manner of whacky stuff out there...

No, this is done on purpose. Setting the nut height is generally considered a setup item, because it's not a one-size-fits-all dimension. So the nuts are just roughed in and left with a lot of material to cover as many different preferences as possible. It's expected that the slots be filed down as desired by the owner.

L

 

[Chad Michael]

For a 34" scale fretless electric bass, close your eyes, play, and listen. Your fingers should already know where to go.

Then, try a 3/4 upright and tell me about it. The challenge and feeling are worth it to me, for whatever reason... have yet to play one on stage. It will keep me interested for my own reasons...

Don't let a fretless bass rule you with or without lines, position markers, etc.... you have to hear it to make it work. I wish you the best.

 

[bucephylus]

Here is my $0.019 About fretless basses: there is a LOT of BAD information on TB. Use caution.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Just got a lined G&L fretless jazz to complement my unlined Rick 4003 fl.
No problem at all switching from no lines, playing on the dots, to lines, with the dots between the frets.
Thinking people make way too big a deal out of this.
It took a minute or two to adjust, switched to the Rick mid-practice (with band) to see if that could work, and it did, no problem.
But seriously, the lines really do make it easier, especially higher up the neck.
Re. switching betwen the two, I guess I'm just repeating myself: really no problem.

 

[Abner]

No problem at all switching from no lines, playing on the dots, to lines, with the dots between the frets.
Thinking people make way too big a deal out of this.

The "big deal" is about playing with side dots in the typical fretted position between the notes with an otherwise unmarked fretless — no lines. That is a setup that makes no sense to me.

Actually, after playing fretless for so long, I think I would prefer to have the side dots on my fretted basses in line with the frets themselves, too.