Fretless - position markers, fret lines, and such

[BaileyMan]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but a quick search didn't turn it up...

Question about the position of dots on unlined fretless basses and fretlines on lined fretless basses.

I measured the distance to the third fret on my fretted bass, and to the fretline on my lined fretless. They're the same distance. My lined fretless (originally unlined) has the dot just behind the fretline, not in the middle between the frets. I've always aimed for the dot.

I measured the distance to the dot at the "third fret" on an unlined fretless I have and discovered that it's the same distance as the dot on the lined fretless, just behind where the fret would go. This was a revelation! I was under the impression that the dots marked the fret position (i.e., where the witness point should be). However, they don't (not on this bass anyhow). The dots mark where you place your finger creating a witness point just in front of it where the fret would go.

I'd been trying to wrap my head around intonation problems. What my ears were telling me was different than what I expected based on what my eyes were telling me. Now it all makes sense.

I'm wondering, for those who play fretless, what kind of bass do you play, is it lined or unlined, what do the dots and/or lines mark (where you aim with the middle of your finger or where the fret/witness point should be)?

Just wondering as I consider changes to my stable...

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but a quick search didn't turn it up...

Question about the position of dots on unlined fretless basses and fretlines on lined fretless basses.

I measured the distance to the third fret on my fretted bass, and to the fretline on my lined fretless. They're the same distance. My lined fretless (originally unlined) has the dot just behind the fretline, not in the middle between the frets. I've always aimed for the dot.

I measured the distance to the dot at the "third fret" on an unlined fretless I have and discovered that it's the same distance as the dot on the lined fretless, just behind where the fret would go. This was a revelation! I was under the impression that the dots marked the fret position (i.e., where the witness point should be). However, they don't (not on this bass anyhow). The dots mark where you place your finger creating a witness point just in front of it where the fret would go.

I'd been trying to wrap my head around intonation problems. What my ears were telling me was different than what I expected based on what my eyes were telling me. Now it all makes sense.

I'm wondering, for those who play fretless, what kind of bass do you play, is it lined or unlined, what do the dots and/or lines mark (where you aim with the middle of your finger or where the fret/witness point should be)?

Just wondering as I consider changes to my stable...

Neither dots or lines will be exact, they are only guides to aid your ear.

 

[SteveCS]

...
...What my ears were telling me ...
...

... is the only thing that matters.

But for reference, all of my fretless basses are unlined and the side dots are notionally where the middle of the fret would be. When setting up I am very particular about getting the intonation at the octave marker perfectly set at exactly the same spot between the double-dots for all strings. The point is not to get all of the other dots in tune, which is almost impossible, but to get the intonation consistent between the strings. After that I don't really take much notice of where the dots fall.

 

[BaileyMan]

Neither dots or lines will be exact, they are only guides to aid your ear.

Yeah. I get that they're only guides and that the ear is the decision maker. Rotating the finger either direction by a milimeter makes a difference. I'm wondering about how they're guiding me.

This has been important to me as I work on fine tuning my ear and developing my fretless skills. I'm at the point where I need to use my eyes to some degree (especially for jumps) to guide me and then my ears to fine tune.

 

[SteveCS]

Yeah. I get that they're only guides and that the ear is the decision maker. Rotating the finger either direction by a milimeter makes a difference. I'm wondering about how they're guiding me.

This has been important to me as I work on fine tuning my ear and developing my fretless skills. I'm at the point where I need to use my eyes to some degree (especially for jumps) to guide me and then my ears to fine tune.

I'm not sure I u derstand the question, so please forgive me if I'm off the mark (no pun intended!).

The dots give you a region to aim for, and within a mm or two will make no more than +/-5 cents up to say the 7th position, which most people won't percieve as out of tune. That said, it is worth thinking about how the brain percieves relative pitch. Given a reference pitch, another note played slightly flat will tend to be perceived as more in tune than one which is slightly sharp. In fact, studies have even suggested that the brain tries to resolve a slightly sharp pitch to the next highest 'correct' pitch. So a slightly flat C gets classed as C, whereas a slightly sharp C might get classed as Db! With that in mind, a note played slightly flat and quickly adjusted in the upwards direction will sound sweeter than a note played slightly sharp and quickly corrected in the downward direction. Likewise with vibrato, which if biased on the flat side sounds sweeter than if it is centred or biased sharp. YMMV.

 

[luciens]

I've played unlined FL for most of the years I've been an FL player, but at the current time I own 2 lined FLs (Fender jaco artists), with the pattern of lines/dots of a regular fretted bass.

On an unlined, the side dots only give the approximate position for a correctly intonated note; they are not exact reference markers. In fact, if you've actually measured it and are being bugged that the dot isn't exactly on a phantom "fret" position, you're paying too much visual attention to the board, in particular the dots . Seriously. The dots aren't an exact guide and they shouldn't be visualized that way.

I always visualized the side dots as marking a nebulous bar of about the width of my fingertips, in which my fingers should generally land when I start to intonate a note. I found that more helpful than visualizing an actual fret at that position.

But in truth, that's all the precision you need. Intonating on the FL isn't about getting your fingers landing on the exact spot of perfect intonation every time. Like on the fretted bass, that task is only about getting your fingers in approximately the right spot when you start to fret the note. Unlike the fretted bass, though, _then_, and always then, you have the additional task of proceeding to intonate the note. What becomes practiced is how quickly and precisely you intonate from that point. Not landing exactly on it every time; that's not only impossible, it's not even the point of intonation to begin with.

It's the same task on my lined basses. The lines just are already there for my reference so I don't have to visualize the pattern if I can see the board. But the task of actually intonating the note is still the same requirement.

L

 

[lokikallas]

Use the Force

 

[Abner]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but a quick search didn't turn it up...

Question about the position of dots on unlined fretless basses and fretlines on lined fretless basses.

I measured the distance to the third fret on my fretted bass, and to the fretline on my lined fretless. They're the same distance. My lined fretless (originally unlined) has the dot just behind the fretline, not in the middle between the frets. I've always aimed for the dot.

I measured the distance to the dot at the "third fret" on an unlined fretless I have and discovered that it's the same distance as the dot on the lined fretless, just behind where the fret would go. This was a revelation! I was under the impression that the dots marked the fret position (i.e., where the witness point should be). However, they don't (not on this bass anyhow). The dots mark where you place your finger creating a witness point just in front of it where the fret would go.

I'd been trying to wrap my head around intonation problems. What my ears were telling me was different than what I expected based on what my eyes were telling me. Now it all makes sense.

I'm wondering, for those who play fretless, what kind of bass do you play, is it lined or unlined, what do the dots and/or lines mark (where you aim with the middle of your finger or where the fret/witness point should be)?

Just wondering as I consider changes to my stable...

What kind of basses are these? Have you measured from the nut to the 12th stop? If they are 34" scale basses, that distance should be 17".

All of mine are unlined, and I've never bothered to measure from the nut to the 3rd stop. Half the time the guitar players are a little out of tune so I compensate anyway.

 

[luciens]

What kind of basses are these? Have you measured from the nut to the 12th stop? If they are 34" scale basses, that distance should be 17".

All of mine are unlined, and I've never bothered to measure from the nut to the 3rd stop. Half the time the guitar players are a little out of tune so I compensate anyway.

Not only that, fretted basses have places where they're normally slightly out of tune by simply the laws of physics, just like guitars. For example the low A on the G string is often slightly flat on a fretted bass. On the FL, if you have lined instrument, you'll notice when you get it right, that you're intonating a little "ahead" of the line when you play that A.

Exact dots vs approximate dots won't really help you in that case. So there's no point in exact positioning to begin with.

The dots shouldn't be way way off, say, in between the "frets", 1/4 tone off or anything like that, though. I've never seen an unlined with dots that far off, but if they are, that's a definite problem...

L

 

[franklindayala]

I have an unlined fretless with side dots.

It depends where I am at the fingerboard. If im at the first "frets", I will be a little sharp for where the dot is. If Im in the upper frets I would be a little flat where the dot is.

Use your ears. Its all that matters.

 

[BaileyMan]

Thanks for the comments and tips! Y'all have given me some useful things to think about (e.g. slightly flat is preferred to slightly sharp)

In fact, if you've actually measured it and are being bugged that the dot isn't exactly on a phantom "fret"

I wouldn't say it's bugging me. It was mostly an "Aha!" moment that the dots (on my unlined fretless) aren't at the same spot as where the fretline would be. It's helpful for me to know this as a reference point.

As we know the dots and lines are just guides, but they're guides that are referencing something...I like to know what it's referencing. For me, understanding the details helps me see the big picture...

 

[Killing Floor]

Yes. There are a ton of threads. Everyone has a different opinion and it's pretty subjective.
I grew up on violin and cello and added bass and guitar around 7th grade. Still play the strings.
My sassy comment is that in all the world of music only some stringed instruments have markers to help you sight the note, brass, woodwind, etc., have no visible markers even for beginners. I know Jaco and stuff and whatever, lines and things so that's fine. But I really think if an upright bassist could play without markers electric players could too. I don't think it is a bad habit or anything negative, I just think we're used to things being that because of the industry. If you buy a DB you could assume there won't be lines and you'd be soundly ridiculed if they were added. In my 100% own not coerced opinion you'll be better off learning to play any instrument without looking at it. And in my violin, bass, guitar, cello, and piano life with decades of these instruments I have only ever heard this conversation regarding the bass guitar. Even my guitar teacher was very specific to learn the neck and discouraged peeking.

The question you asked, though; usually side dots are aligned to the position. But since it is a little more challenging to intonate a fretless (I use painter tape for the setup line) even side dots are a close guess in my experience. Some makers don't go to the trouble of moving the side dots forward to compensate for the fretless note, but most good brands will try. But that challenges the builder to set the intonation to the dots which I would bet against in the case of any production brand.

 

[Killing Floor]

p.s. on one of my factory original Fender fretless Ps the side markers at 12 are almost 1/4" off. It's professionally intonated and I wondered if the bridge was drilled too close but they use a template so that's not even possible. So I compared to a similar year P fretted and they are in the same position. That's my experience, your results may vary.

 

[darwin-bass]

On an unlined, the side dots only give the approximate position for a correctly intonated note; they are not exact reference markers. In fact, if you've actually measured it and are being bugged that the dot isn't exactly on a phantom "fret" position, you're paying too much visual attention to the board, in particular the dots . Seriously. The dots aren't an exact guide and they shouldn't be visualized that way.

This makes NO SENSE to me. It may be true but it makes no sense. It is in effect saying that a modern CNC constructed neck can repeatedly and precisely locate the fret slots but can't do so with the side dots?

Just makes no mechanical engineering / manufacturing process sense at all.

I would expect the lines or dots on an unlined neck to be positioned as precisely as the frets they represent. What should be imprecise in this process is the width of the player's finger, they way the stop the note and the actual resulting witness point. I would expect THAT is the variability, not the manufacturer's placement of the dots or lines.

But I must confess I don't have an unlined fretless to measure.

 

[luciens]

This makes NO SENSE to me. It may be true but it makes no sense. It is in effect saying that a modern CNC constructed neck can repeatedly and precisely locate the fret slots but can't do so with the side dots?

Just makes no mechanical engineering / manufacturing process sense at all.

I would expect the lines or dots on an unlined neck to be positioned as precisely as the frets they represent. What should be imprecise in this process is the width of the player's finger, they way the stop the note and the actual resulting witness point. I would expect THAT is the variability, not the manufacturer's placement of the dots or lines.

But I must confess I don't have an unlined fretless to measure.

Well, that's kind of my point. I've never actually measured the dot positions on any unlined FL I've ever owned, so you may be right that they're always spot on from a "responsible" builder.

The point is I never had to measure anything. They were always close enough, regardless of whether the dot was centered over the "fretline" or slightly behind it, or whatever.

It's nice if they are that precise, especially instrument to instrument, but it shouldn't goof you up if they're not.

On a lined instrument, I've always figured that the necks were just necks already prepped for frets, but pulled off the line and "converted" before frets were actually installed. So I'd be surprised if the typical lines weren't spot-on in the exact "fret" area....

L

 

[Blues Daddy]

I have three G&L's - two fretted and one fretless unlined. They are each exactly the same measurement (13.7mm) from the inside of the nut to 1) the center of the third fret on the fretted ones and 2) the center of the first side dot on the fretless.

Interestingly, when I've played the fretless exclusively for a lengthy period of time (months in a row) but then pick up one of the fretted basses, I've found that I sometimes have to focus on fingering just behind the frets instead of where my muscle memory automatically goes to (which wants to put my fingers too much centered on top of the frets).

 

[TomB]

This makes NO SENSE to me. It may be true but it makes no sense. It is in effect saying that a modern CNC constructed neck can repeatedly and precisely locate the fret slots but can't do so with the side dots?

Just makes no mechanical engineering / manufacturing process sense at all.

I would expect the lines or dots on an unlined neck to be positioned as precisely as the frets they represent. What should be imprecise in this process is the width of the player's finger, they way the stop the note and the actual resulting witness point. I would expect THAT is the variability, not the manufacturer's placement of the dots or lines.

But I must confess I don't have an unlined fretless to measure.

Indeed. I only own unlined fretless basses and all the side dots are in the fret positions. Whether or not they are microscopically accurate is unimportant, given how squishy is a fingertip. It’s all in the ears and subtle adjustments - learned through practice and experience.

 

[luciens]

Also, keep in mind the side dots only help the most only on the E (or B) string. As you go onto the D and G, it's paramount that you don't follow the dots. Instead, you still have to visualize lines or frets perpendicular to the neck going downward to get to the right general area.

This gets really hairy on a 6 string unlined bass. I mean, you do develop the right picture in your mind with practice even on a 6 string, but you are definitely doing something more complicated than simply following the dots visually...

L

 

[dabbler]

...
The dots shouldn't be way way off, say, in between the "frets", 1/4 tone off or anything like that, though. I've never seen an unlined with dots that far off, but if they are, that's a definite problem...

L

I have 2 unlined FLs with dots in the same position as a fretted bass. While this is not the norm, once I know that fact, I can play them fine.

It's like others have said, they are guides, whether they are at the fret positions or between, they can serve their function... if you practice with the knowledge of their configuration.

 

[40Hz]

I'm wondering, for those who play fretless, what kind of bass do you play, is it lined or unlined, what do the dots and/or lines mark (where you aim with the middle of your finger or where the fret/witness point should be)?

I have three. One is a lined 34”, one is an unmarked and unlined 32”, and the last an unmarked and unlined 34” scale neck.

I don’t care whether or not a fretless has lines, position markers, or is completely blank. I seldom look at the neck when I play one. I rely on muscle memory and my ears for proper intonation. Which is something you have to do with any fretless regardless of what is or isn’t on the fingerboard.

As far as position markers go, some builders put them in the same place they would on a fretted neck while others put them at the approximate place you’d stop that interval. The only way to know is to check it. And the best approach to getting comfortable playing a fretless properly is not to allow yourself to rely on position markers - or lines for that matter. Because even standard straight metal frets are only close to the correct pitches for some notes.

With a fretless it’s possible to get around the intonation errors inherent in the design of a fretted guitar neck and nail the pitch exactly if you so desire.